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I don't want to take a drug to improve my performance while having to monitor for side effects, deal with withdrawal and worry about potential and unknown long

I don't want to take a drug to improve my performance while having to monitor for side effects, deal with withdrawal and worry about potential and unknown long term damage. In particular I don't want to feel like I would have to take a drug just to keep up with everyone else who is on gear. That's how it seems to be in professional sports, but that's a niche. Brain drugs would be attractive to a large part of society.

leesec 8y ago
This competition is already the case with amphetamines. They are not necessary but IMO they do provide a productivity benefit over those who do not take, on average.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  It's an acute benefit though, isn't it? I've noticed that people coming down off of amphetamines are not as productive as they might otherwise be.
  - Dirlewanger 8y ago
    Do you know of an acute performance-enhancing/experience-enhancing drug that doesn't have a shitty come-down phase?
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      That's true, but meth mouth is a particularly shitty side effect.
  - UweSchmidt 8y ago
    They could beat you in their productive phase and suffer while coming down. Lose-lose.
  - leesec 8y ago
    Probably, it'd be hard to say for sure. I personally don't take it every day and sometimes just take half of my dosage, to reduce tolerance. There definitely is a tolerance though and also a bit of Yerkes-Dodson law type deal at play, e.g. if I take to much I am also not productive. I would definitely say it increases my productivity output though overall.
  - wasdfff 8y ago
    Correctly dosed and this isn’t an issue
thekingofh 8y ago
This is one of the main reasons I like watching soccer. The smallest dude can dominate the world and it doesn't feel like I'm watching people destroy their health for a chance at making it big.
- Retric 8y ago
  Soccer players still ‘benefit’ from drug use. A much larger issue was largely ignored by professional bodies. FIFA still only has a 2 year ban for someone caught, and does not try that hard to find users. According to a statement of one of UK Sport's Independent Sampling Officers (ISO), "If a club knows in advance we're coming, and the club suspects one of their players, they keep him off training and his name doesn't appear on the list I am given." In the 1999–2000 season, testers were present at just 32 of the over 3,500 league matches, taking samples from two players of each side. Compared to other sports in the UK, like cricket, cycling or athletics, footballers are far less likely to be tested.[13] A case of high-profile was the one of Rio Ferdinand, who missed a drug test in September 2003 and found himself punished for it, being banned for eight months.[14] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_association_football https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_association_footba...
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I think any sport that is more like an art is gonna be like that. Soccer is more of an art. There are positions where the performance enhancing drugs definitely will help you. (And I'm sure a lot of players use those drugs if they are at those positions.) But you won't become Pogba, Messi, or Neymar by shooting up. Those guys are artists. Basketball is like that too. Shoot up with whatever you like, it will have no effect on your 3 point percentage. You want to shoot like Steph Curry? Then you'll need to be just as good an artist. You want to handle the ball as well as Kyrie Irving? You'll have to be just as good an artist. I know people might disagree with this one, but I think some hockey positions are like that. People should try this experiment, go to your local ice rink, and try weaving through traffic at top speed on skates and putting the puck in that 6 inch window that a keeper might give you to the back of the net. Steroids aren't gonna help with that. Those are all sports where a little guy can come in and just dominate through sheer asymmetry of skill. It's a beautiful thing to watch.
bryanrasmussen 8y ago
'm pretty sure physical enhancers would be more attractive to the general population than mental enhancers, although the HN community probably varies on this issue.
- gbear605 8y ago
  It depends on what you mean by “physical enhancers” and “mental enhancers” - my understanding is that stimulants are already much more widely used than steroids. I certainly agree that some theoretical physically enhancing drugs would be more popular than some theoretic mentally enhancing drugs.
  - bryanrasmussen 8y ago
    A physical enhancer enhances some physical aspect predominantly, and a mental enhancer enhances some mental aspect predominantly or allows you to do better at enhancing the particular aspect yourself. physical enhancers I can think of: Steroids, Viagra mental enhancers I can think of: Modafinal (and similar, mainly, can also argue it is a physical enhancer), psychological drugs focused on better focus etc. half and half - amphetamines. you can stay up to study but you don't pay attention so you could also stay up to party. physical enhancers I can think of offhand: drug makes you beautiful, drug makes you physically tough, sharpshooter drug etc. etc. mental enhancers I can think of: increase short term memory, photographic memory, increase reading speed, language processing improvements. I guess I see that passing the GED drug mentioned in the other comment but intelligence is as a general rule not something people aspire to in this society (IMHO) therefore I would expect intelligence altering drugs would not receive as much funding as drugs that effect the things that society values, and those things tend to be physical. Or to paraphrase Idiocracy the best minds would be devoted to enlarging penis size not making people smarter.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I don't know man? Where I'm from out here in flyover country there are an awful lot of people stuck in dead end jobs that would literally jump at a drug like that if its effect was dramatic enough. Getting that GED in a weekend? You better believe there are a lot of people out here in trailer park and opioid land who would be all over that. Doesn't mean much to us, but the GED opens up raises at their current jobs, and even jobs that they currently are not able to get. That's not even counting the waitress types trying to get through college at night without waking up their kid. Those single mom types would definitely take it. It wouldn't even be a question for them. Only way an illicit drug like that would not be consumed around where I live, is if the people around here couldn't find out about it. (Even that though would be hard, because I'm sure we have drug dealers around here who are probably pretty good at marketing stuff like that.)
gthtjtkt 8y ago
This is how I felt as a kid on ADHD medicine, except for the "keep up with everyone else who is on gear" part. Instead it's "to conform with the traditional notion of how a student should behave". It's really horrifying that they already give these types of drugs to elementary school children, none of whom are capable of weighing the pros and cons.
mcphage 8y ago
> In particular I don't want to feel like I would have to take a drug just to keep up with everyone else who is on gear. That's what I do to deal with my ADD. Adderall has some obnoxious side effects. And also: that's why I wear a CPAP every night, and believe me wearing a mask every single night is annoying as hell. So on one hand, I get you—it'd be nice to not have to do these things just to get back to baseline. But on the other, I'm glad I have the option to do so, and I do them knowing the side effects, because it's worth it.
topspin 8y ago
"That's how it seems to be in professional sports, but that's a niche." That niche is a bigger than you realize. One of the 'benefits' of amphetimine is productivity. Many meth abusers use it before work for this reason. Both physical and mental effort can be sustained for much longer periods.
wasdfff 8y ago
People already take adderall to pass exams and to do well at work. Some people do their best work drunk or after smoking pot. Some people even microdose psychadelics (and in biology, we wouldn’t have PCR if it weren’t for a fateful acid trip). People take these performance enhancers because they work. The only thing stopping everyone from taking their gramme of soma a day is cost, access, and a willingness to experiment. Sometimes I wonder what could be achieved if we lowered these barriers we’ve put up based on antiquated views of moral character. Imagine if Einstein met Hoffman!

leesec 8y ago

This competition is already the case with amphetamines. They are not necessary but IMO they do provide a productivity benefit over those who do not take, on average.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
It's an acute benefit though, isn't it? I've noticed that people coming down off of amphetamines are not as productive as they might otherwise be.
- Dirlewanger 8y ago
  Do you know of an acute performance-enhancing/experience-enhancing drug that doesn't have a shitty come-down phase?
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    That's true, but meth mouth is a particularly shitty side effect.
- UweSchmidt 8y ago
  They could beat you in their productive phase and suffer while coming down. Lose-lose.
- leesec 8y ago
  Probably, it'd be hard to say for sure. I personally don't take it every day and sometimes just take half of my dosage, to reduce tolerance. There definitely is a tolerance though and also a bit of Yerkes-Dodson law type deal at play, e.g. if I take to much I am also not productive. I would definitely say it increases my productivity output though overall.
- wasdfff 8y ago
  Correctly dosed and this isn’t an issue

thekingofh 8y ago

This is one of the main reasons I like watching soccer. The smallest dude can dominate the world and it doesn't feel like I'm watching people destroy their health for a chance at making it big.

Retric 8y ago
Soccer players still ‘benefit’ from drug use. A much larger issue was largely ignored by professional bodies. FIFA still only has a 2 year ban for someone caught, and does not try that hard to find users. According to a statement of one of UK Sport's Independent Sampling Officers (ISO), "If a club knows in advance we're coming, and the club suspects one of their players, they keep him off training and his name doesn't appear on the list I am given." In the 1999–2000 season, testers were present at just 32 of the over 3,500 league matches, taking samples from two players of each side. Compared to other sports in the UK, like cricket, cycling or athletics, footballers are far less likely to be tested.[13] A case of high-profile was the one of Rio Ferdinand, who missed a drug test in September 2003 and found himself punished for it, being banned for eight months.[14] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_association_football https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_association_footba...
bilbo0s 8y ago
I think any sport that is more like an art is gonna be like that. Soccer is more of an art. There are positions where the performance enhancing drugs definitely will help you. (And I'm sure a lot of players use those drugs if they are at those positions.) But you won't become Pogba, Messi, or Neymar by shooting up. Those guys are artists. Basketball is like that too. Shoot up with whatever you like, it will have no effect on your 3 point percentage. You want to shoot like Steph Curry? Then you'll need to be just as good an artist. You want to handle the ball as well as Kyrie Irving? You'll have to be just as good an artist. I know people might disagree with this one, but I think some hockey positions are like that. People should try this experiment, go to your local ice rink, and try weaving through traffic at top speed on skates and putting the puck in that 6 inch window that a keeper might give you to the back of the net. Steroids aren't gonna help with that. Those are all sports where a little guy can come in and just dominate through sheer asymmetry of skill. It's a beautiful thing to watch.

bryanrasmussen 8y ago

'm pretty sure physical enhancers would be more attractive to the general population than mental enhancers, although the HN community probably varies on this issue.

gbear605 8y ago
It depends on what you mean by “physical enhancers” and “mental enhancers” - my understanding is that stimulants are already much more widely used than steroids. I certainly agree that some theoretical physically enhancing drugs would be more popular than some theoretic mentally enhancing drugs.
- bryanrasmussen 8y ago
  A physical enhancer enhances some physical aspect predominantly, and a mental enhancer enhances some mental aspect predominantly or allows you to do better at enhancing the particular aspect yourself. physical enhancers I can think of: Steroids, Viagra mental enhancers I can think of: Modafinal (and similar, mainly, can also argue it is a physical enhancer), psychological drugs focused on better focus etc. half and half - amphetamines. you can stay up to study but you don't pay attention so you could also stay up to party. physical enhancers I can think of offhand: drug makes you beautiful, drug makes you physically tough, sharpshooter drug etc. etc. mental enhancers I can think of: increase short term memory, photographic memory, increase reading speed, language processing improvements. I guess I see that passing the GED drug mentioned in the other comment but intelligence is as a general rule not something people aspire to in this society (IMHO) therefore I would expect intelligence altering drugs would not receive as much funding as drugs that effect the things that society values, and those things tend to be physical. Or to paraphrase Idiocracy the best minds would be devoted to enlarging penis size not making people smarter.
bilbo0s 8y ago
I don't know man? Where I'm from out here in flyover country there are an awful lot of people stuck in dead end jobs that would literally jump at a drug like that if its effect was dramatic enough. Getting that GED in a weekend? You better believe there are a lot of people out here in trailer park and opioid land who would be all over that. Doesn't mean much to us, but the GED opens up raises at their current jobs, and even jobs that they currently are not able to get. That's not even counting the waitress types trying to get through college at night without waking up their kid. Those single mom types would definitely take it. It wouldn't even be a question for them. Only way an illicit drug like that would not be consumed around where I live, is if the people around here couldn't find out about it. (Even that though would be hard, because I'm sure we have drug dealers around here who are probably pretty good at marketing stuff like that.)

gthtjtkt 8y ago

This is how I felt as a kid on ADHD medicine, except for the "keep up with everyone else who is on gear" part. Instead it's "to conform with the traditional notion of how a student should behave". It's really horrifying that they already give these types of drugs to elementary school children, none of whom are capable of weighing the pros and cons.

mcphage 8y ago

> In particular I don't want to feel like I would have to take a drug just to keep up with everyone else who is on gear. That's what I do to deal with my ADD. Adderall has some obnoxious side effects. And also: that's why I wear a CPAP every night, and believe me wearing a mask every single night is annoying as hell. So on one hand, I get you—it'd be nice to not have to do these things just to get back to baseline. But on the other, I'm glad I have the option to do so, and I do them knowing the side effects, because it's worth it.

topspin 8y ago

"That's how it seems to be in professional sports, but that's a niche." That niche is a bigger than you realize. One of the 'benefits' of amphetimine is productivity. Many meth abusers use it before work for this reason. Both physical and mental effort can be sustained for much longer periods.

wasdfff 8y ago

People already take adderall to pass exams and to do well at work. Some people do their best work drunk or after smoking pot. Some people even microdose psychadelics (and in biology, we wouldn’t have PCR if it weren’t for a fateful acid trip). People take these performance enhancers because they work. The only thing stopping everyone from taking their gramme of soma a day is cost, access, and a willingness to experiment. Sometimes I wonder what could be achieved if we lowered these barriers we’ve put up based on antiquated views of moral character. Imagine if Einstein met Hoffman!