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Alternative title: Country that has already done thing decries country that is doing thing. See also the non-proliferation treaty.

deanCommie 8y ago
<Deep breath> 1) Whataboutism doesn't help anyone. Two wrongs don't make a right. 2) India has the hindsight of history that the US and earlier Space programs didn't. Humanity did not consider these kinds of things earlier. Space was treated as essentially infinite. We now know better and know that this debree can cause a real threat to future space missions, even in the worst case dooming humanity to Earth as a prison[1]. By the way, the same applies to carbon emissions. Yes, the West got to industrialize by rampantly polluting the world. No, that doesn't mean China and India get a free pass for it. Also, to the exploitation of countries/economies/people below you on the totem pole. Again, no free pass for what China is doing in Africa just because Europe did it for hundreds of years. 3) This is a slightly different point from (2), but back when Russia and US were rampantly launching rockets into space and exploding satellites, there wasn't a permanently occupied space station in orbit, crewed continuously by human beings from an international peaceful cooperating collective. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1ibDImAYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1ibDImAYU
- reitzensteinm 8y ago
  Who is giving China and India a free pass? It seems to me that the opposite is happening, where they're behind and very far behind the per capita emissions of Western countries respectively yet we're giving them shit instead of getting our own house in order.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Well, this was a political move, nothing more (or less). I presume you know about recent bombings in Kashmir, sovereign part of Indian territory since its creation of 1947. Done by terrorists most probably trained and equipped in Pakistan. Their secret service is very happy to do these kind of activities, not caring much who is current Pakistani president du jour. Kind of state within the state. Where was/is US? Still supporting Pakistan, it really doesn't matter much what they do. Together with China. In light of these facts it doesn't seem so shocking, they had to do something. It doesn't make it right either obviously for all the reasons stated here, but I blame US and its stupid foreign policies for these kind of senseless escalations.
kranner 8y ago
> Alternative title: Country that has already done thing decries country that is doing thing. This is no argument. It is now recognised as an irresponsible thing to do by anyone. The US dropped nuclear bombs on populated areas during WW2. Should it not try to stop countries that may want to drop such bombs in 2019?
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >The US dropped nuclear bombs on populated areas during WW2. Should it not try to stop countries that may want to drop such bombs in 2019? It's tone deaf for nations that already have nuclear protection to tell other countries not to develop the capability. It's like Bloomberg or Fienstien, or some other politician who lives somewhere safe and has a security detail telling a town hall meeting in the 48205 (a zipcode in Detroit that would make a lot of people here uncomfortable) that they'd all be safer if they turned in their guns.
- roenxi 8y ago
  Obviously the US should try to stop other countries that want to drop bombs; it makes sense from every perspective in a moral and realpolitik sense. However, the issue we face in your counter is that the US dropped 2 bombs, the world didn't end, and obviously they were happy enough with the results that they've kept a rather large nuclear arsenal in prime condition, ready to be used. I'm not even sure if the US apologised for dropping those nukes. From a high-functioning-sociopath perspective, which is what large agglomerations of humans do frequently degenerate to, why shouldn't a given country not strive to emulate something that clearly worked? For the US to decry such mimicry is meaningless at best, hypocritical at worst: 1) If they think an act is against some great universal principle they should not have done it in the first place. 2) If individual politicians would almost certainly seek power by any means if roles were reversed, that is just the sort of people who become politicians. It is fine if they want to boss countries around to support their own interests; that is sort of expected. To do more is to invite eye rolls.
  - kranner 8y ago
    Just because countries tend to act like sociopaths doesn’t make that sort of behaviour acceptable. And if we leave behind the bomb analogy, this was an action with global consequences. Not only potentially harming the ISS but risking escalating an arms race that could jeopardise all future satellites and space missions.
sbzodnsbd 8y ago
Surely you’ll be accused of whataboutism. And they’re right. Two wrongs don’t make a right. And if India is wrong to do test, she’s right to dismiss hypocrites.
smohare 8y ago
Gee, you sure convinced me with that textbook use of tu quoque.

deanCommie 8y ago

<Deep breath> 1) Whataboutism doesn't help anyone. Two wrongs don't make a right. 2) India has the hindsight of history that the US and earlier Space programs didn't. Humanity did not consider these kinds of things earlier. Space was treated as essentially infinite. We now know better and know that this debree can cause a real threat to future space missions, even in the worst case dooming humanity to Earth as a prison[1]. By the way, the same applies to carbon emissions. Yes, the West got to industrialize by rampantly polluting the world. No, that doesn't mean China and India get a free pass for it. Also, to the exploitation of countries/economies/people below you on the totem pole. Again, no free pass for what China is doing in Africa just because Europe did it for hundreds of years. 3) This is a slightly different point from (2), but back when Russia and US were rampantly launching rockets into space and exploding satellites, there wasn't a permanently occupied space station in orbit, crewed continuously by human beings from an international peaceful cooperating collective. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1ibDImAYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1ibDImAYU

reitzensteinm 8y ago
Who is giving China and India a free pass? It seems to me that the opposite is happening, where they're behind and very far behind the per capita emissions of Western countries respectively yet we're giving them shit instead of getting our own house in order.
saiya-jin 8y ago
Well, this was a political move, nothing more (or less). I presume you know about recent bombings in Kashmir, sovereign part of Indian territory since its creation of 1947. Done by terrorists most probably trained and equipped in Pakistan. Their secret service is very happy to do these kind of activities, not caring much who is current Pakistani president du jour. Kind of state within the state. Where was/is US? Still supporting Pakistan, it really doesn't matter much what they do. Together with China. In light of these facts it doesn't seem so shocking, they had to do something. It doesn't make it right either obviously for all the reasons stated here, but I blame US and its stupid foreign policies for these kind of senseless escalations.

kranner 8y ago

> Alternative title: Country that has already done thing decries country that is doing thing. This is no argument. It is now recognised as an irresponsible thing to do by anyone. The US dropped nuclear bombs on populated areas during WW2. Should it not try to stop countries that may want to drop such bombs in 2019?

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>The US dropped nuclear bombs on populated areas during WW2. Should it not try to stop countries that may want to drop such bombs in 2019? It's tone deaf for nations that already have nuclear protection to tell other countries not to develop the capability. It's like Bloomberg or Fienstien, or some other politician who lives somewhere safe and has a security detail telling a town hall meeting in the 48205 (a zipcode in Detroit that would make a lot of people here uncomfortable) that they'd all be safer if they turned in their guns.
roenxi 8y ago
Obviously the US should try to stop other countries that want to drop bombs; it makes sense from every perspective in a moral and realpolitik sense. However, the issue we face in your counter is that the US dropped 2 bombs, the world didn't end, and obviously they were happy enough with the results that they've kept a rather large nuclear arsenal in prime condition, ready to be used. I'm not even sure if the US apologised for dropping those nukes. From a high-functioning-sociopath perspective, which is what large agglomerations of humans do frequently degenerate to, why shouldn't a given country not strive to emulate something that clearly worked? For the US to decry such mimicry is meaningless at best, hypocritical at worst: 1) If they think an act is against some great universal principle they should not have done it in the first place. 2) If individual politicians would almost certainly seek power by any means if roles were reversed, that is just the sort of people who become politicians. It is fine if they want to boss countries around to support their own interests; that is sort of expected. To do more is to invite eye rolls.
- kranner 8y ago
  Just because countries tend to act like sociopaths doesn’t make that sort of behaviour acceptable. And if we leave behind the bomb analogy, this was an action with global consequences. Not only potentially harming the ISS but risking escalating an arms race that could jeopardise all future satellites and space missions.

sbzodnsbd 8y ago

Surely you’ll be accused of whataboutism. And they’re right. Two wrongs don’t make a right. And if India is wrong to do test, she’s right to dismiss hypocrites.

smohare 8y ago

Gee, you sure convinced me with that textbook use of tu quoque.