4 ms·

If the program were set up as above, such that any accredited journalist could walk into any Apple Store at any time and do the thing, the logistical challenges

by rosser 8y ago

If the program were set up as above, such that any accredited journalist could walk into any Apple Store at any time and do the thing, the logistical challenges in having custom, pre-compromized phones on-hand everywhere ("Why aren't we just grabbing those from normal inventory? Isn't that weird?"), or having to bake a "Glenn Greenwald" image onto the phone when he walked in, would probably be noticed. EDIT: What's to stop Mr. Greenwald from sending a buddy from an old job to swap a new device on his behalf?

munk-a 8y ago
Because they'd need to be an accredited journalist, and the presenting of any kind of proof to that end would be enough for three-letter agencies to wiggle their way into a compromise of the system - including the fact that glenn may send his old buddy frank in to collect his phone, so better give either one of them one of the tainted ones. I misread the original proposal a bit and had assumed it'd be a mail-in-service, but with even determination the three-letter folks could probably leave spiked devices in the stores glenn would be likely to walk into. This is more reasonable but I still have reservations.
- gpm 8y ago
  If it was set up well the journalist could have the exact new phone in hand disconnected from any wires that might flash it before announcing he was a journalist. I don't think there is a way with current technology to discretely have people or computers setup to recognize Greenwald (let alone all his friends) in a good percentage of Apple stores before the transaction is completed. Even if it is possible to identify Greenwald and friends before the transaction that access is probably only available to the actual NSA, not ex NSA employees. On the other hand - you've now identified the phones for remote exploit. Also identifying which journalists are significant enough to be beneficiaries of this program is probably hard.
- bigiain 8y ago
  Keep in mind Glenn knows this too, so presumably would be somewhat wary of his "local" Apple Stores, and could instead choose to randomly drop into stores when travelling to unexpected and unannounced places. It's not like _any_ journalist would trust this service at an Apple Store in Saudi Arabia, and probably not the UAE, Oman, or Qatar either. (Or may other countries.) Being "not a perfect and universal solution" doesn't make it worthless. Snowden isn't about to stroll into Apple Store Moscow to take advantage of a refurbed iPhone. I suspect things would be different if Omar Abdulaziz could have dropped into Apple Store Toronto and swapped his Pegasus-infected phone over...
bigiain 8y ago
I could imagine The Intercept (and many other news organisations) sending the cub reporter to the local Apple Store with a box of 50 factory-wiped iPhones once a month.
darkpuma 8y ago
Speaking of "accredited journalist" and Glenn Greenwald, how does Glenn Greenwald demonstrate his accreditation to the Apple Store employees? What sort of documentation would Greenwald be asked to present that demonstrates to these Apple store employees that writing for The Intercept entitles him to eligibility in this program? As far as I can tell, "journalist accreditation" has no objective meaning and is determined on an organization-by-organization basis using subjective standards. Here is the list of criteria the UN uses: https://www.un.org/en/media/accreditation/request.shtml https://www.un.org/en/media/accreditation/request.shtml At first glance, Greenwald would seem to qualify by that standard, provided whoever was judging him were reasonable (by my personal standards) in judging criteria such as whether The Intercept is a "recognized media organization." However I also notice that some of the criteria listed on the page seem very restrictive and could quite possibly disqualify a lot of investigative journalists (requiring six publications per year, when that investigative journalist may be working on serious stories that take more time than that...)

by rosser 8y ago

munk-a 8y ago

Because they'd need to be an accredited journalist, and the presenting of any kind of proof to that end would be enough for three-letter agencies to wiggle their way into a compromise of the system - including the fact that glenn may send his old buddy frank in to collect his phone, so better give either one of them one of the tainted ones. I misread the original proposal a bit and had assumed it'd be a mail-in-service, but with even determination the three-letter folks could probably leave spiked devices in the stores glenn would be likely to walk into. This is more reasonable but I still have reservations.

gpm 8y ago
If it was set up well the journalist could have the exact new phone in hand disconnected from any wires that might flash it before announcing he was a journalist. I don't think there is a way with current technology to discretely have people or computers setup to recognize Greenwald (let alone all his friends) in a good percentage of Apple stores before the transaction is completed. Even if it is possible to identify Greenwald and friends before the transaction that access is probably only available to the actual NSA, not ex NSA employees. On the other hand - you've now identified the phones for remote exploit. Also identifying which journalists are significant enough to be beneficiaries of this program is probably hard.
bigiain 8y ago
Keep in mind Glenn knows this too, so presumably would be somewhat wary of his "local" Apple Stores, and could instead choose to randomly drop into stores when travelling to unexpected and unannounced places. It's not like _any_ journalist would trust this service at an Apple Store in Saudi Arabia, and probably not the UAE, Oman, or Qatar either. (Or may other countries.) Being "not a perfect and universal solution" doesn't make it worthless. Snowden isn't about to stroll into Apple Store Moscow to take advantage of a refurbed iPhone. I suspect things would be different if Omar Abdulaziz could have dropped into Apple Store Toronto and swapped his Pegasus-infected phone over...

bigiain 8y ago

I could imagine The Intercept (and many other news organisations) sending the cub reporter to the local Apple Store with a box of 50 factory-wiped iPhones once a month.

darkpuma 8y ago

Speaking of "accredited journalist" and Glenn Greenwald, how does Glenn Greenwald demonstrate his accreditation to the Apple Store employees? What sort of documentation would Greenwald be asked to present that demonstrates to these Apple store employees that writing for The Intercept entitles him to eligibility in this program? As far as I can tell, "journalist accreditation" has no objective meaning and is determined on an organization-by-organization basis using subjective standards. Here is the list of criteria the UN uses: https://www.un.org/en/media/accreditation/request.shtml https://www.un.org/en/media/accreditation/request.shtml At first glance, Greenwald would seem to qualify by that standard, provided whoever was judging him were reasonable (by my personal standards) in judging criteria such as whether The Intercept is a "recognized media organization." However I also notice that some of the criteria listed on the page seem very restrictive and could quite possibly disqualify a lot of investigative journalists (requiring six publications per year, when that investigative journalist may be working on serious stories that take more time than that...)