9 ms·

I don't think new feats in society are accomplished by holding groups of individuals to task and making each one play by the rules. We need new ideas and new go

I don't think new feats in society are accomplished by holding groups of individuals to task and making each one play by the rules. We need new ideas and new government structures to fight the tide or get ahead of it and inspire people with smart and informed leadership. Shaming ambiguous highly paid developers doesn't do anything, because you are criticizing a job role, a "slot" in society, when you think you are criticizing a person. If you get one software engineer to "take responsibility," another will simply step into place and gladly accept the high paying salary to code without ethics. We need government regulation.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
I do agree we need government regulation[1], but as perhaps a bit of defense in depth, I absolutely think we need to be instilling engineers with ethics. Would your point make any sense if we were talking about doctors, instead of engineers? We teach "first, do no harm" from day one in that field, and we wouldn't assume for any act a doctor would refuse to do, one that would is readily available. We need the same for software engineers. We need to teach people that their mere paycheck job could incite a genocide on the other side of the world. I also dislike the "someone else will take their place" logic. While a large number of jobs are, indeed, trivially replaceable, many are not, and many developers have significantly above average skill. Some believe they act ethically, and some do not care. If we can remove those who wish to act ethically from working at unethical companies, we significantly shrink the job pool for them. They'll have less options, and likely have to fight harder and pay more to get them. This means that unethical companies may be paying more (i.e. lower profit margins) and be getting worse talent. If we can get more of the most talented developers working at more ethical companies, the more ethical solutions will be better, and they will win in the market. [1] I am a big proponent of GDPR and a desire for a US version of it. Though ultimately, particularly in terms of government surveillance, I feel we need a Constitutional Amendment defining a right to privacy. Something far more lasting and enshrined into our future legal framework that recognizes that privacy is a fundamental human right.
- Benjammer 8y ago
  I would definitely support a digital privacy amendment.
bitL 8y ago
The whole point of importing H1Bs from areas with questionable past ethical standards in economical distress (India, China, ex-Soviet union, EEU etc.) was for some managers to have a workforce that could do dirty jobs a regular US/WEU citizen would refuse to do (and do it cheaply ofc). You can still observe it even in FANG that is specifically poaching people from EEU for dirty work (e.g. building internal censorship tools led by Ukrainian/Romanian/non-US devs).
- cbnotfromthere 8y ago
  "You can still observe it even in FANG that is specifically poaching people from EEU for dirty work (e.g. building internal censorship tools led by Ukrainian/Romanian/non-US devs)." Romania is not and never was part of the EEU aka Eurasian Economic Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union
  - bitL 8y ago
    Alright, I meant Eastern (members of) European Union (EEU) vs Western (members of) European Union (WEU). You could see it sometimes abbreviated that way. Didn't occur to me it denotes Eurasian union (I thought that one was largely defunct anyway?).
    - cbnotfromthere 8y ago
      "I meant Eastern (members of) European Union (EEU) vs Western (members of) European Union (WEU)" If so then you made another mistake :-) as Ukraine is not a member state of the European Union. [EEU vs WEU] You could see it sometimes abbreviated that way." Please don't read my comment as aggressive but I have NEVER seen such abbreviated form. "Eurasian union (I thought that one was largely defunct anyway?)" This entity is very much alive and kicking (usually as much as Vladimir Putin wants it to be). The EEU presidency is held throughout 2019 by Armenia.
      - bitL 8y ago
mkhpalm 8y ago
I just don't see how government regulation will stop those same governments from doing the things we are talking about here. Its not companies like Google coming up with social credit programs.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

I do agree we need government regulation[1], but as perhaps a bit of defense in depth, I absolutely think we need to be instilling engineers with ethics. Would your point make any sense if we were talking about doctors, instead of engineers? We teach "first, do no harm" from day one in that field, and we wouldn't assume for any act a doctor would refuse to do, one that would is readily available. We need the same for software engineers. We need to teach people that their mere paycheck job could incite a genocide on the other side of the world. I also dislike the "someone else will take their place" logic. While a large number of jobs are, indeed, trivially replaceable, many are not, and many developers have significantly above average skill. Some believe they act ethically, and some do not care. If we can remove those who wish to act ethically from working at unethical companies, we significantly shrink the job pool for them. They'll have less options, and likely have to fight harder and pay more to get them. This means that unethical companies may be paying more (i.e. lower profit margins) and be getting worse talent. If we can get more of the most talented developers working at more ethical companies, the more ethical solutions will be better, and they will win in the market. [1] I am a big proponent of GDPR and a desire for a US version of it. Though ultimately, particularly in terms of government surveillance, I feel we need a Constitutional Amendment defining a right to privacy. Something far more lasting and enshrined into our future legal framework that recognizes that privacy is a fundamental human right.

Benjammer 8y ago
I would definitely support a digital privacy amendment.

bitL 8y ago

The whole point of importing H1Bs from areas with questionable past ethical standards in economical distress (India, China, ex-Soviet union, EEU etc.) was for some managers to have a workforce that could do dirty jobs a regular US/WEU citizen would refuse to do (and do it cheaply ofc). You can still observe it even in FANG that is specifically poaching people from EEU for dirty work (e.g. building internal censorship tools led by Ukrainian/Romanian/non-US devs).

cbnotfromthere 8y ago
"You can still observe it even in FANG that is specifically poaching people from EEU for dirty work (e.g. building internal censorship tools led by Ukrainian/Romanian/non-US devs)." Romania is not and never was part of the EEU aka Eurasian Economic Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union
- bitL 8y ago
  Alright, I meant Eastern (members of) European Union (EEU) vs Western (members of) European Union (WEU). You could see it sometimes abbreviated that way. Didn't occur to me it denotes Eurasian union (I thought that one was largely defunct anyway?).
  - cbnotfromthere 8y ago
    "I meant Eastern (members of) European Union (EEU) vs Western (members of) European Union (WEU)" If so then you made another mistake :-) as Ukraine is not a member state of the European Union. [EEU vs WEU] You could see it sometimes abbreviated that way." Please don't read my comment as aggressive but I have NEVER seen such abbreviated form. "Eurasian union (I thought that one was largely defunct anyway?)" This entity is very much alive and kicking (usually as much as Vladimir Putin wants it to be). The EEU presidency is held throughout 2019 by Armenia.
    - bitL 8y ago

mkhpalm 8y ago

I just don't see how government regulation will stop those same governments from doing the things we are talking about here. Its not companies like Google coming up with social credit programs.