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(I sit on an SFUSD community board.) There are many strong opinions (ITT and elsewhere) about how algebra should obviously be taught in middle school. The dat

(I sit on an SFUSD community board.) There are many strong opinions (ITT and elsewhere) about how algebra should obviously be taught in middle school. The data I've seen does not support those conclusions. Eg [1][2]. This is kind of an interesting article, but it really does not convey the essential facts at hand. Middle school alg harms student achievement. Many/most students end up retaking it anyway (!!!) and there is a simple and effective fix. SFUSD should be lauded for braving the political heat. Maybe there is a kind of educational system where middle school alg is a good idea. But our system is not that kind of system. If you live/vote in SF please support evidence-based practices and common sense. <3 [1] https://www.edweek.org/media/2018/06/11/v37-35-algebra-chart600.jpg https://www.edweek.org/media/2018/06/11/v37-35-algebra-chart... [2] "But in a 2015 study, the University of North Carolina's Thurston Domina and colleagues tracked how California's uneven 8th grade algebra-for-all rollout played out across districts. In a surprise finding, they discovered that higher enrollments in early algebra were linked to a decline in students' scores on a state math test." https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2018/06/13/a-bold-effort-to-de-track-algebra-shows.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2018/06/13/a-bold-effort-...

cwbrandsma 8y ago
What form of achievement are we talking about? I’m seeing schools were anything less than all A’s is a failure. Are we dropping because kids are getting C’S?
- shawndrost 8y ago
  I'll recap the links I dropped in case they're hard to digest or whatever. They cover two measurements of achievement: * Before this change, 40% of SFUSD students had to retake Alg. After this change, it was 10%. * In a separate study focused on statewide 2008 effects of middle school alg, "enrolling more students in [middle school alg] has negative average effects on [10th-grade standardized test scores]". This SFUSD plan does not seem dumb from what I can tell, and I'm an informed and interested observer. Change my mind!
supernova87a 8y ago
The problem is that a country's technological advancement is not usually based on the mean performance of everyone, or the equity of the population in general achieving a minimum level. A country's advancement is based largely on the outstanding rockstars / top performers and their innovation. I'm afraid this is trading off wanting to help students who are low achieving, at the expense of the highest performers getting to achieve their potential. Of course the step that SFUSD took led to fewer students retaking the class later. You make a class easier / later, and of course everyone will pass more successfully. But did it measure how many students were held back from higher achievement? Of course not, there is no good way to quantify that. China and India, who let far fewer aspects of equality, racial/group concerns, privacy and self-esteem issues interfere with their schooling, are going to eat our lunch.
- 0815test 8y ago
  You really think you can tell who the "outstanding rockstars" of your country are going to be from an 8th-grade Math class? I mean, if we were teaching stuff like "data science" and JavaScript coding in elementary school, you might have a point. But this is elementary math, that everyone should be able to do to a high standard. I really have trouble grokking what your point might be here, other than trying to justify the all-too-common "soft bigotry of low expectations".
  - supernova87a 8y ago
    No, you don't know exactly who the rockstars are going to be, at any level. That's exactly the point of having at every age, some "reach" opportunities for those who can use it at that stage and show that they're outstanding and benefit from being helped to test/learn to their potential. Versus what, you suggest that we have mandatory remedial level education for everyone to sit through until the last kid is performing up to grade level?
SiVal 8y ago
Maybe there is a kind of educational system where middle school alg is a good idea. But our system is not that kind of system. If you live/vote in SF please support evidence-based practices and common sense. <3 Indeed, your system is not that kind of system. On the other side of the Pacific, Asian kids are routinely prepared for algebra by 7th grade, and their scores on international math tests in later years lead the world. That's Asian "common sense". One can't help wondering why it is that their cousins, the Asian kids in the SFUSD, are so poorly prepared for algebra even by the 8th grade. The fact that San Francisco-style "common sense" decides that the solution is to declare that even those who are prepared will no longer be allowed to take algebra until high school says a lot about the fraught relationship between San Francisco and common sense. Non-SF common sense might conclude instead that the fix should involve making elementary school better rather than making middle school slow down to match the failing elementary schools. Maybe expand your "evidence-based" thinking beyond your own failing districts and look at statistics and practices from the rest of the world. What is it that Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, ML China, Korea, and Japan do with primary-age Asian kids that your SFUSD doesn't do with its Asian kids? Why not start with that?
- shawndrost 8y ago
  My original comment was really focused on my narrow read of the question in the thread title. My comment is basically "because there is clear A/B test data to support the decision". I take your comment as a valid answer to a broader question -- something like "thinking about the bigger picture, and envisioning all possibilities, how could and should SFUSD work?" I have a lot of thoughts on that too. But if I take your comment as a direct rebuttal, on my same topic, I think it's an impractical way to manage the system. It's like you're arguing that middle school alg is a cool feature that shouldn't cause the app to fall over, and we should redeploy the cool feature and reengineer everything. I don't agree that your conclusions flow from your premises and I think the pragmatic approach (given your premises) is to disable the feature while we do the reengineering.
- kaitai 8y ago
  "What is it that ... do with primary-age Asian kids that your SFUSD doesn't do with its Asian kids? Why not start with that?" Because that's culture. That's respect and reverence for education and teachers. And then there's the after-school and weekend tutoring. There's always this discussion in comparison with Finland, as well, which takes a very different approach to education than China. Yep, again culture. A commitment to children. In Finland, a commitment to funding schools and social services as a society. It's way easier to mandate a change in the curriculum. As a mathematics educator in the US, I'll make this claim: the curriculum is almost irrelevant. It's the teachers and the attitude of society toward education that matters the most. If teachers are good & have the freedom and training to teach, they'll adjust the curriculum, whatever it may be.

cwbrandsma 8y ago

What form of achievement are we talking about? I’m seeing schools were anything less than all A’s is a failure. Are we dropping because kids are getting C’S?

shawndrost 8y ago
I'll recap the links I dropped in case they're hard to digest or whatever. They cover two measurements of achievement: * Before this change, 40% of SFUSD students had to retake Alg. After this change, it was 10%. * In a separate study focused on statewide 2008 effects of middle school alg, "enrolling more students in [middle school alg] has negative average effects on [10th-grade standardized test scores]". This SFUSD plan does not seem dumb from what I can tell, and I'm an informed and interested observer. Change my mind!

supernova87a 8y ago

The problem is that a country's technological advancement is not usually based on the mean performance of everyone, or the equity of the population in general achieving a minimum level. A country's advancement is based largely on the outstanding rockstars / top performers and their innovation. I'm afraid this is trading off wanting to help students who are low achieving, at the expense of the highest performers getting to achieve their potential. Of course the step that SFUSD took led to fewer students retaking the class later. You make a class easier / later, and of course everyone will pass more successfully. But did it measure how many students were held back from higher achievement? Of course not, there is no good way to quantify that. China and India, who let far fewer aspects of equality, racial/group concerns, privacy and self-esteem issues interfere with their schooling, are going to eat our lunch.

0815test 8y ago
You really think you can tell who the "outstanding rockstars" of your country are going to be from an 8th-grade Math class? I mean, if we were teaching stuff like "data science" and JavaScript coding in elementary school, you might have a point. But this is elementary math, that everyone should be able to do to a high standard. I really have trouble grokking what your point might be here, other than trying to justify the all-too-common "soft bigotry of low expectations".
- supernova87a 8y ago
  No, you don't know exactly who the rockstars are going to be, at any level. That's exactly the point of having at every age, some "reach" opportunities for those who can use it at that stage and show that they're outstanding and benefit from being helped to test/learn to their potential. Versus what, you suggest that we have mandatory remedial level education for everyone to sit through until the last kid is performing up to grade level?

SiVal 8y ago

Maybe there is a kind of educational system where middle school alg is a good idea. But our system is not that kind of system. If you live/vote in SF please support evidence-based practices and common sense. <3 Indeed, your system is not that kind of system. On the other side of the Pacific, Asian kids are routinely prepared for algebra by 7th grade, and their scores on international math tests in later years lead the world. That's Asian "common sense". One can't help wondering why it is that their cousins, the Asian kids in the SFUSD, are so poorly prepared for algebra even by the 8th grade. The fact that San Francisco-style "common sense" decides that the solution is to declare that even those who are prepared will no longer be allowed to take algebra until high school says a lot about the fraught relationship between San Francisco and common sense. Non-SF common sense might conclude instead that the fix should involve making elementary school better rather than making middle school slow down to match the failing elementary schools. Maybe expand your "evidence-based" thinking beyond your own failing districts and look at statistics and practices from the rest of the world. What is it that Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, ML China, Korea, and Japan do with primary-age Asian kids that your SFUSD doesn't do with its Asian kids? Why not start with that?

shawndrost 8y ago
My original comment was really focused on my narrow read of the question in the thread title. My comment is basically "because there is clear A/B test data to support the decision". I take your comment as a valid answer to a broader question -- something like "thinking about the bigger picture, and envisioning all possibilities, how could and should SFUSD work?" I have a lot of thoughts on that too. But if I take your comment as a direct rebuttal, on my same topic, I think it's an impractical way to manage the system. It's like you're arguing that middle school alg is a cool feature that shouldn't cause the app to fall over, and we should redeploy the cool feature and reengineer everything. I don't agree that your conclusions flow from your premises and I think the pragmatic approach (given your premises) is to disable the feature while we do the reengineering.
kaitai 8y ago
"What is it that ... do with primary-age Asian kids that your SFUSD doesn't do with its Asian kids? Why not start with that?" Because that's culture. That's respect and reverence for education and teachers. And then there's the after-school and weekend tutoring. There's always this discussion in comparison with Finland, as well, which takes a very different approach to education than China. Yep, again culture. A commitment to children. In Finland, a commitment to funding schools and social services as a society. It's way easier to mandate a change in the curriculum. As a mathematics educator in the US, I'll make this claim: the curriculum is almost irrelevant. It's the teachers and the attitude of society toward education that matters the most. If teachers are good & have the freedom and training to teach, they'll adjust the curriculum, whatever it may be.