4 ms·

>I agree that it's under-discussed. I think the reason its under-discussed is that there is a collective group-think which functions as overwhelming (to the in

by mmjaa 8y ago

>I agree that it's under-discussed. I think the reason its under-discussed is that there is a collective group-think which functions as overwhelming (to the individual) reinforcement: "there is no other way available to solve this problem than the mass sale and consumption of pharmaceuticals". The moment someone proposes a non-pharmaceutical (read: profitable) solution to many of these ills, they are shut down by the group-think. This is under-discussed, imho, because in the context of social/peer pressure to conform to a very Western normative (consumerism), individual responsibility is shut down. EDIT: and the downvotes demonstrate my point, because "everyone knows pharmaceuticals are the only solution" ...

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
Therapy is also a long lasting, lucrative approach. I think you're confusing consumerism with the long standing idea that we should be able to solve everything with a pill. It's evident in the older generations insistence that if they could just have that one surgery for their knees, or that round of antibiotics for their cold, their lives would be 100% better.
- mmjaa 8y ago
  Consumerism: the protection or promotion of the interests of consumers I think there are very definitely market forces at work, keeping people in the mindset that pharmaceuticals are the only 'real' effective solution to their ills - when so, so many other alternatives are available. I don't doubt that chemicals can make peoples lives happier - I see it all the time. What I resist, however, is the notion that individuals should subjugate themselves to collective will just because everyone says pharmaceuticals are the way. Maybe strengthening ones resistance to groupthink and collective-derived thought processes is also an effective way to strengthen ones mental health .. alas, this point of view is too often overwhelmed by the very mob it serves to service, however ...
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    > What I resist, however, is the notion that individuals should subjugate themselves to collective will just because everyone says pharmaceuticals are the way. Maybe strengthening ones resistance to groupthink and collective-derived thought processes is also an effective way to strengthen ones mental health .. alas, this point of view is too often overwhelmed by the very mob it serves to service, however ... What I'm getting from this is you have a specific agenda against "group think and collective-derived thought processes" and are being purposefully vague, as demonstrated with "...". What is your alternative? You seem to have one in mind.
    - mmjaa 8y ago
      The alternative: question what you are being told about why you don't feel good, and don't just go along with the pack - its not always headed in the right direction. Case in point: The West's mental health addiction problem. It isn't getting better because of pharmaceutical treatment: its getting worse.
      - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        So reject the best known treatments, flawed as they may be, and instead choose internal reflection, when for many conditions being unable to accurately reflect is either a cause or a symptom of the condition?
        mmjaa 8y ago
        There are many, many alternatives to a life of addiction. My only point is, don't just blindly accept pharmaceutical dependence without at least considering the alternatives. Pharmaceutical addiction is no benign thing - addiction and dependency is a key factor in the profit motives of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical complex. Before you fall for their traps, be sure you've considered the alternative.
        SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        I'm a bit concerned about a figure it out yourself approach to this sort of thing - it can be very hard for someone who is cognitively compromised to make an objectively good choice. Also it can be hard to make an actual good choice when you don't have all the right education - the pro-plague crowd honestly think they are making the correct choice based upon their consideration of all the alternatives.
DanBC 8y ago
> to a very Western You meant American, because in the UK the front-line treatment for depression or anxiety is a talking therapy, coupled with social prescribing (which to be fair has variable availability), and then medication if indicated. OP talks about a long term prescription for clonazepam, and current advice is that long term benzo use must be avoided.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >You meant American, because in the UK the front-line treatment for depression or anxiety is a talking therapy, coupled with social prescribing (which to be fair has variable availability), and then medication if indicated. It's the front-line treatment for mild depression and mild-to-moderate anxiety, because of the poor evidence for the efficacy of antidepressant medicines for patients with less severe illness. SSRIs and talking therapies are recommended equally for moderate or severe depression and severe anxiety, because the evidence suggests that they are equally effective. NICE guidance states that benzodiazepines should not be prescribed for more than two weeks, because of diminishing efficacy and the risk of dependence. SSRIs are cheaper and more convenient than psychotherapy, which should not be underestimated. The NHS certainly can't afford to offer psychotherapy to everyone who could benefit and many Americans don't have adequate insurance coverage. Getting psychotherapy outside of office hours can often be a significant challenge, which is a total dealbreaker for many people. I would certainly like to see greater use of psychotherapy (particularly for people with chronic and/or severe disorders), but there's nothing innately wrong with the widespread use of a safe and effective class of drugs. There just isn't any evidence to suggest that SSRIs are inferior to psychotherapy, although it may be the case that some patients who do not benefit from SSRIs would benefit from psychotherapy (and vice-versa). https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90/chapter/1-Guidance#step-3-persistent-subthreshold-depressive-symptoms-or-mild-to-moderate-depression-with-inadequate https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90/chapter/1-Guidance#ste... https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg113/chapter/1-Guidance#stepped-care-for-people-with-gad https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg113/chapter/1-Guidance#st...

by mmjaa 8y ago

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago

Therapy is also a long lasting, lucrative approach. I think you're confusing consumerism with the long standing idea that we should be able to solve everything with a pill. It's evident in the older generations insistence that if they could just have that one surgery for their knees, or that round of antibiotics for their cold, their lives would be 100% better.

mmjaa 8y ago
Consumerism: the protection or promotion of the interests of consumers I think there are very definitely market forces at work, keeping people in the mindset that pharmaceuticals are the only 'real' effective solution to their ills - when so, so many other alternatives are available. I don't doubt that chemicals can make peoples lives happier - I see it all the time. What I resist, however, is the notion that individuals should subjugate themselves to collective will just because everyone says pharmaceuticals are the way. Maybe strengthening ones resistance to groupthink and collective-derived thought processes is also an effective way to strengthen ones mental health .. alas, this point of view is too often overwhelmed by the very mob it serves to service, however ...
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  > What I resist, however, is the notion that individuals should subjugate themselves to collective will just because everyone says pharmaceuticals are the way. Maybe strengthening ones resistance to groupthink and collective-derived thought processes is also an effective way to strengthen ones mental health .. alas, this point of view is too often overwhelmed by the very mob it serves to service, however ... What I'm getting from this is you have a specific agenda against "group think and collective-derived thought processes" and are being purposefully vague, as demonstrated with "...". What is your alternative? You seem to have one in mind.
  - mmjaa 8y ago
    The alternative: question what you are being told about why you don't feel good, and don't just go along with the pack - its not always headed in the right direction. Case in point: The West's mental health addiction problem. It isn't getting better because of pharmaceutical treatment: its getting worse.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      So reject the best known treatments, flawed as they may be, and instead choose internal reflection, when for many conditions being unable to accurately reflect is either a cause or a symptom of the condition?
      - mmjaa 8y ago
        There are many, many alternatives to a life of addiction. My only point is, don't just blindly accept pharmaceutical dependence without at least considering the alternatives. Pharmaceutical addiction is no benign thing - addiction and dependency is a key factor in the profit motives of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical complex. Before you fall for their traps, be sure you've considered the alternative.
        SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        I'm a bit concerned about a figure it out yourself approach to this sort of thing - it can be very hard for someone who is cognitively compromised to make an objectively good choice. Also it can be hard to make an actual good choice when you don't have all the right education - the pro-plague crowd honestly think they are making the correct choice based upon their consideration of all the alternatives.

DanBC 8y ago

> to a very Western You meant American, because in the UK the front-line treatment for depression or anxiety is a talking therapy, coupled with social prescribing (which to be fair has variable availability), and then medication if indicated. OP talks about a long term prescription for clonazepam, and current advice is that long term benzo use must be avoided.

jdietrich 8y ago
>You meant American, because in the UK the front-line treatment for depression or anxiety is a talking therapy, coupled with social prescribing (which to be fair has variable availability), and then medication if indicated. It's the front-line treatment for mild depression and mild-to-moderate anxiety, because of the poor evidence for the efficacy of antidepressant medicines for patients with less severe illness. SSRIs and talking therapies are recommended equally for moderate or severe depression and severe anxiety, because the evidence suggests that they are equally effective. NICE guidance states that benzodiazepines should not be prescribed for more than two weeks, because of diminishing efficacy and the risk of dependence. SSRIs are cheaper and more convenient than psychotherapy, which should not be underestimated. The NHS certainly can't afford to offer psychotherapy to everyone who could benefit and many Americans don't have adequate insurance coverage. Getting psychotherapy outside of office hours can often be a significant challenge, which is a total dealbreaker for many people. I would certainly like to see greater use of psychotherapy (particularly for people with chronic and/or severe disorders), but there's nothing innately wrong with the widespread use of a safe and effective class of drugs. There just isn't any evidence to suggest that SSRIs are inferior to psychotherapy, although it may be the case that some patients who do not benefit from SSRIs would benefit from psychotherapy (and vice-versa). https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90/chapter/1-Guidance#step-3-persistent-subthreshold-depressive-symptoms-or-mild-to-moderate-depression-with-inadequate https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90/chapter/1-Guidance#ste... https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg113/chapter/1-Guidance#stepped-care-for-people-with-gad https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg113/chapter/1-Guidance#st...