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I've definitely gotten into some very heated discussions about this point, with some very intelligent and well educated people on "the left" who attended presti

I've definitely gotten into some very heated discussions about this point, with some very intelligent and well educated people on "the left" who attended prestigious universities. Their position is that "all of the behavioral differences between men and women are purely societal; none are based in biology at all."

foldr 8y ago
That's not the point of view under discussion. The question is whether there are cognitive differences between men and women. One can acknowledge that there are without thinking that it is these (usually quite small) cognitive differences that are primarily responsible for behavioral differences. That being said, I would be surprised if you could find an example of anyone at all prominent or influential on the left expressing in writing the position that you quote.
- switch_kickflip 8y ago
  > I would be surprised if you could find an example of anyone at all prominent or influential on the left expressing in writing the position that you quote. How about this for a prominent and influential source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x The headline is "Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains" Under the sub-heading "Cultural paths": "So if it’s not brain hard-wiring, how do we explain the often stark differences in behaviour and interests between men and women? Here is where we get to Rippon’s thesis on the impact of a gendered world on the human brain." You can inject people with testosterone and estrogen and observe behavioral changes (as people attest to in this very thread), so it's certainly a pretty strange position to have. Neuroscience is too important for these nonfactual statements to be accepted, let alone be published in Nature. There's a pretty thorough counter argument here: https://quillette.com/2019/03/29/denying-the-neuroscience-of-sex-differences/ https://quillette.com/2019/03/29/denying-the-neuroscience-of...
  - foldr 8y ago
    That's the headline. The actual content of the article consists in discussion of various instances in which male/female brain differences have been exaggerated. The brain is a bit of a red herring here. We know little about the brain -- far too little to be able to draw any conclusions from whatever differences there may be between average male and female brains. We do, however, have reliable behavioral evidence of small cognitive differences between men and women on average. My point was that there are few if any people who deny the existence of such differences.
    - sullyj3 8y ago
      Why does the headline get a free pass?
      - foldr 8y ago
        Because it typically wouldn't be written by the author of the article.
    - classicsnoot 8y ago
      It feels like you keep moving the goalposts and your initial argument was "I have no personal experience with [x] so I don't believe [x] is a thing." I can't leave links to my life experiences, but as I finish my undergrad I have heard every type of teacher and student maintain that the only differences between men and women are socially constructed. It is common knowledge and thus not really debated. The one time I saw a teacher maintain otherwise, it was a guy in the biology department who was retiring. The class session dissolved into a shouting match between students with the teacher looking on.
      - foldr 8y ago
        If that is a common point of view, it should be easy to provide a reference to someone expressing it in writing. I suspect that you weren't listening very carefully to what people were actually saying.
- daveslash 8y ago
  @foldr, You bring up a good point/distinction. When discussing differences between the sexes, one should be careful not to conflate cognitive/brain specific differences and behavioral differences in general. There are biologically based non-brain things (i.e. hormones) that can affect behavior. In your original comment, you were specifically referring to the brain; my reply conflated that with other behavioral differences. I apologize for the confusion on my part.

foldr 8y ago

That's not the point of view under discussion. The question is whether there are cognitive differences between men and women. One can acknowledge that there are without thinking that it is these (usually quite small) cognitive differences that are primarily responsible for behavioral differences. That being said, I would be surprised if you could find an example of anyone at all prominent or influential on the left expressing in writing the position that you quote.

switch_kickflip 8y ago
> I would be surprised if you could find an example of anyone at all prominent or influential on the left expressing in writing the position that you quote. How about this for a prominent and influential source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x The headline is "Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains" Under the sub-heading "Cultural paths": "So if it’s not brain hard-wiring, how do we explain the often stark differences in behaviour and interests between men and women? Here is where we get to Rippon’s thesis on the impact of a gendered world on the human brain." You can inject people with testosterone and estrogen and observe behavioral changes (as people attest to in this very thread), so it's certainly a pretty strange position to have. Neuroscience is too important for these nonfactual statements to be accepted, let alone be published in Nature. There's a pretty thorough counter argument here: https://quillette.com/2019/03/29/denying-the-neuroscience-of-sex-differences/ https://quillette.com/2019/03/29/denying-the-neuroscience-of...
- foldr 8y ago
  That's the headline. The actual content of the article consists in discussion of various instances in which male/female brain differences have been exaggerated. The brain is a bit of a red herring here. We know little about the brain -- far too little to be able to draw any conclusions from whatever differences there may be between average male and female brains. We do, however, have reliable behavioral evidence of small cognitive differences between men and women on average. My point was that there are few if any people who deny the existence of such differences.
  - sullyj3 8y ago
    Why does the headline get a free pass?
    - foldr 8y ago
      Because it typically wouldn't be written by the author of the article.
  - classicsnoot 8y ago
    It feels like you keep moving the goalposts and your initial argument was "I have no personal experience with [x] so I don't believe [x] is a thing." I can't leave links to my life experiences, but as I finish my undergrad I have heard every type of teacher and student maintain that the only differences between men and women are socially constructed. It is common knowledge and thus not really debated. The one time I saw a teacher maintain otherwise, it was a guy in the biology department who was retiring. The class session dissolved into a shouting match between students with the teacher looking on.
    - foldr 8y ago
      If that is a common point of view, it should be easy to provide a reference to someone expressing it in writing. I suspect that you weren't listening very carefully to what people were actually saying.
daveslash 8y ago
@foldr, You bring up a good point/distinction. When discussing differences between the sexes, one should be careful not to conflate cognitive/brain specific differences and behavioral differences in general. There are biologically based non-brain things (i.e. hormones) that can affect behavior. In your original comment, you were specifically referring to the brain; my reply conflated that with other behavioral differences. I apologize for the confusion on my part.