5 ms·

I'd wager that the Super Secret Plan is geared towards further centralizing the Internet. Preferably on Cloud Flare's infrastructure. This is one part of a tug

I'd wager that the Super Secret Plan is geared towards further centralizing the Internet. Preferably on Cloud Flare's infrastructure. This is one part of a tug-of-war that's going on in recent years between Internet network operators and cloud providers, with the cloud providers slowly but surely winning. For better or worse, we are moving away from a distributed Internet composed of many autonomous networks into a future in which the only job of the ISPs is to connect homes and offices to the local POPs (Points Of Presence) of the large cloud providers. Why do you need connectivity to other networks when you can get Google (w/ Youtube & GCE) and Facebook from a local POP? Add to that all the sites and services that reside on Amazon, Azure, Cloud Flare, Akamai, and maybe a few more large clouds/CDNs, and you don't need a public Internet anymore. Imagine the security and performance benefits of that!

mwcampbell 8y ago
Contemplating this makes me happy that HN (among other sites I frequent) doesn't use one of these big providers (though it used to use Cloudflare). May it always stay that way.
- auslander 8y ago
  I might have triggered the divorce :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17399783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17399783
penagwin 8y ago
Here's the issue that everything fights when talking about Centralization vs Decentralization. Centralization is far easier to manage. A single entity has the ability to control all routes and all the pieces of the network. The structure can become faster, mesh-networks are notoriously slow. By using a VPN + Argo cloudflare has control over how your data is routed, and can make sure it skips slow network segments, is peered well, etc. Decentralization doesn't require trust if implemented correctly. This is it's biggest selling point IMO. If implemented correctly (which is hard to do) it can have better uptime, as we aren't relying on any single entity. But, with meshnetworks as an example, a specific route could be slower then the others, and there's often not much you can do about it. Decentralization if not implemented correctly is a nightmare on so many levels. There's nobody to appeal to if an issue occurs. If trust isn't implemented correctly (current state of ISPs) then we have multiple parties who can spy/modify your communications.
- swinglock 8y ago
  Of course centralization is easier. The problem is that it's centralized.
- topranks 8y ago
  Or put another way - decentralization may be able to offer greater resilience and reachability - but it will never result in better performance or stability.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Shank 8y ago
I don’t think this would fly for a number of reasons, but CloudFlare isn’t exactly a world leader or even a household name. They’re a newcomer in this space and for once they’re actually open with their community (us). If CloudFlare is the villain, then are CenturyLink & Comcast the heroes? By my estimation, we’re more likely to see any kind of doomsday scenario like that executed by cable companies and telcos — which already have a natural monopoly in most localities. I don’t see CloudFlare as having anywhere close to that reach.
- bo1024 8y ago
  CloudFlare is definitely large enough to raise concerns about centralization of the Internet. You don't have to be a household name for that (e.g. Akamai isn't either). Their site says that their infrastructure "powers nearly 10% of all Internet requests". They aren't a villain, they're an illustration of market forces currently favoring centralization. Like CenturyLink and Comcast, for that matter.
- PaulHoule 8y ago
  I don't think CloudFlare is a newcomer. They're big in the CDN market.
  - adamch 8y ago
    "big in the CDN market" is very different to "has enough pull to significantly centralize the internet like Google or Amazon".
    - topranks 8y ago
      CDNs are literally the other thing (aside from Public Cloud providers) that are centralizing the internet. You statement is the exact opposite of reality.
      - acdha 8y ago
        That’s a very harsh dismissal and I don’t think it holds up well because it ignores the difficulty of switching. You can switch CDNs quickly, without needing any user actions, whereas it’s considerably more work to switch cloud providers and even harder to get users to switch their usage.
skybrian 8y ago
This is still better than only having competition at the ISP level since it's easy to switch VPN's. Building a network like Cloudflare is no easy task, but neither is building a mobile network or installing fiber. While not in itself neutral, it seems like it should help to preserve the competition that network neutrality is supposed to enable, since it's easy for small organizations to hook up with Cloudflare and they do encryption where they can. I'm reminded of Galbraith's theory of countervailing power, which seems like a more realistic approach than always thinking in terms of centralization versus decentralization: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countervailing_power https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countervailing_power Also, consider how companies try to commoditize their complements, which having competition at different layers tends to do: https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement

mwcampbell 8y ago

Contemplating this makes me happy that HN (among other sites I frequent) doesn't use one of these big providers (though it used to use Cloudflare). May it always stay that way.

auslander 8y ago
I might have triggered the divorce :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17399783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17399783

penagwin 8y ago

Here's the issue that everything fights when talking about Centralization vs Decentralization. Centralization is far easier to manage. A single entity has the ability to control all routes and all the pieces of the network. The structure can become faster, mesh-networks are notoriously slow. By using a VPN + Argo cloudflare has control over how your data is routed, and can make sure it skips slow network segments, is peered well, etc. Decentralization doesn't require trust if implemented correctly. This is it's biggest selling point IMO. If implemented correctly (which is hard to do) it can have better uptime, as we aren't relying on any single entity. But, with meshnetworks as an example, a specific route could be slower then the others, and there's often not much you can do about it. Decentralization if not implemented correctly is a nightmare on so many levels. There's nobody to appeal to if an issue occurs. If trust isn't implemented correctly (current state of ISPs) then we have multiple parties who can spy/modify your communications.

swinglock 8y ago
Of course centralization is easier. The problem is that it's centralized.
topranks 8y ago
Or put another way - decentralization may be able to offer greater resilience and reachability - but it will never result in better performance or stability.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Shank 8y ago

I don’t think this would fly for a number of reasons, but CloudFlare isn’t exactly a world leader or even a household name. They’re a newcomer in this space and for once they’re actually open with their community (us). If CloudFlare is the villain, then are CenturyLink & Comcast the heroes? By my estimation, we’re more likely to see any kind of doomsday scenario like that executed by cable companies and telcos — which already have a natural monopoly in most localities. I don’t see CloudFlare as having anywhere close to that reach.

bo1024 8y ago
CloudFlare is definitely large enough to raise concerns about centralization of the Internet. You don't have to be a household name for that (e.g. Akamai isn't either). Their site says that their infrastructure "powers nearly 10% of all Internet requests". They aren't a villain, they're an illustration of market forces currently favoring centralization. Like CenturyLink and Comcast, for that matter.
PaulHoule 8y ago
I don't think CloudFlare is a newcomer. They're big in the CDN market.
- adamch 8y ago
  "big in the CDN market" is very different to "has enough pull to significantly centralize the internet like Google or Amazon".
  - topranks 8y ago
    CDNs are literally the other thing (aside from Public Cloud providers) that are centralizing the internet. You statement is the exact opposite of reality.
    - acdha 8y ago
      That’s a very harsh dismissal and I don’t think it holds up well because it ignores the difficulty of switching. You can switch CDNs quickly, without needing any user actions, whereas it’s considerably more work to switch cloud providers and even harder to get users to switch their usage.

skybrian 8y ago

This is still better than only having competition at the ISP level since it's easy to switch VPN's. Building a network like Cloudflare is no easy task, but neither is building a mobile network or installing fiber. While not in itself neutral, it seems like it should help to preserve the competition that network neutrality is supposed to enable, since it's easy for small organizations to hook up with Cloudflare and they do encryption where they can. I'm reminded of Galbraith's theory of countervailing power, which seems like a more realistic approach than always thinking in terms of centralization versus decentralization: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countervailing_power https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countervailing_power Also, consider how companies try to commoditize their complements, which having competition at different layers tends to do: https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement