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As a former vegetarian (now a pesco-pollo-tarian?) the important of eggs can't be understated. Arguably the one source of animal protein and fats that can be et

As a former vegetarian (now a pesco-pollo-tarian?) the important of eggs can't be understated. Arguably the one source of animal protein and fats that can be ethically sourced without harming the animal [1]. [1] vegans disagree on this point, but that's a different debate

seba_dos1 8y ago
The problem is that while it can be, it rarely is...
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  If the labels and laws are not to be trusted, you can always have your own chickens and look after their welfare yourself.
  - harimau777 8y ago
    In much of the US that's against the law (and that's not even including people who live in apartments without yards).
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  But if it is important to you, then sourcing ethically produced eggs is not particularly difficult.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    People disagree about what's ethical.
    - rootusrootus 8y ago
      True. I could also probably find people who think cutting down plants isn't ethical.
    - wool_gather 8y ago
      Regardless, whatever your "ethical treatment of a fowl" criteria are, you are fairly likely to be able to find eggs that meet it.
- throwaway400 8y ago
  Take a drive out to the country sometime, you'll find farms that'll sell you eggs. They usually have a sign that says "fresh eggs".
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    Have you actually tried it? It's feasible if you occasionally eat some eggs, but if your diet is mostly based on eggs you simply won't have enough. The main reason of animal abuse on chicken farms is scaling the supply to reach the demand. Not even speaking about the fact that it's pretty difficult for somebody who lives in a city and doesn't own a car.
hudbuddy 8y ago
Worth noting that if you refuse to get fats from animals, it's important to get your DHA through algae oil.
- hudbuddy 8y ago
  I see now that the article mentions this
magic_beans 8y ago
I'm the same, and I happily eat farmer-raised eggs and mollusks. Mussels actively clean out water!
Insanity 8y ago
I'm a vegetarian not a vegan, and thus I eat eggs. But the 'ethically' sourced part is something I'm not that sure about. Sure they can be (and I get them from my grandparents who keep some chickens.. so that's ethical IMO). If you buy eggs from a shop, I'd say there is a fair chance that the animals are not treated that well. EDIT: I now realize many others have already made this point in other comments, oopsie.
- ravenstine 8y ago
  Most of what people think are "ethical" eggs that are sold in stores are basically a scam. Sure, they're eggs, but "free range" can mean the chickens have access to a little door and a puny plot of land for an hour, and "cage free" can mean the chickens never go outside. Pasture-raised eggs are your best bet, and that's all I'll buy, but even I'm skeptical because I've been burned so many times by believing my eggs were ethical.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    It depends on local regulations, but here in Denmark, organic eggs must meet the following regulations: -Maximum of 3000 chickens in a flock and a maximum of 6 chickens per square meter in the coops, which must allow daylight in. -The chickens must have access to perches and nests. -At least one third of the flooring must be loose bedding, such as straw or sand, to allow the chickens to dust bathe. -The chickens must have all-year access to outdoor areas with at least 4 square meters per chicken. It must be covered by grass or other vegetation, and must provide shelter from wind/weather. An outdoor area must stand unused every other year, for parasite prevention and to let the vegetation regrow. -Beak trimming is prohibited. -Feed must be organic and must include roughage. While it's not perfect, it's a damn sight better than battery caged hens.
- dguo 8y ago
  I use this "Organic Egg Scorecard" to help determine if I should buy eggs from a particular brand: https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/
J-dawg 8y ago
Unless you're referring to the very new "no-kill" eggs [0] (which AFAIK are only on sale in Germany), all eggs involve harming an animal. And that's before we get to any concerns about how the laying females are treated. I eat eggs myself, so I'm not preaching. I just sometimes wonder whether I should. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/22/worlds-first-no-kill-eggs-go-on-sale-in-berlin https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/22/worlds-f...
- peteradio 8y ago
  I'd encourage you to find a local source. Truly an insignificant cost difference. You can see how the sausage is made and make your peace with it. The more bold could even get a couple chickens 3-4 would have a small family drowning in eggs. Maybe it's not the same everywhere but there are tons of people with chickens in the Midwest.
  - J-dawg 8y ago
    With respect, that doesn't really affect the point I was making. While I agree with you, the people/companies who supply those chickens to the local supplier still have no use for the male chicks. So even if you're buying eggs laid by hens that have a great life, you're still causing animals to be killed. Like I said, I have no right to be preachy. I just want more people to think clearly about this stuff. I hope the "no-kill" method becomes widespread.
    - peteradio 8y ago
      Oh I see, I did not consider roosters at all. Not really sure what you do about them. They are nice to have for protection in an open range setup. What exactly do they do with roosters in the no kill method?
      - J-dawg 8y ago
        They are never born/hatched - the new method allows the sex of an embryo to be determined while it's still in the egg. Effectively they are "aborted". Some roosters would obviously be preserved as breeding stock, just as they are now.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
As a (sometimes inconsistent) vegetarian who doesn't actively eat eggs (haven't bought them in a year), I'd actually argue that eggs (and diary) are actually less ethical than meat, with (pastured) beef and lamb being the most ethical. It seems less cruel for an animal to spend its life standing in a field than for it to be stuck laying eggs its whole life or being milked twice a day for as long as its useful, only to be led to the slaughterhouse. In fact, commercial chickens are the most cruel industry, chickens are so cheap they are treated like a bulk good, rather than like a living animal. Even free range chickens live a shit life. We talk about treating our servers like cattle, rather than pets. But cattle are actually treated very well, there's a lot of value in a single beast and it's worth looking after them when they're sick. Chickens are so cheap (they cost, what, $7 at the supermarket?) that if they're sick or injured, it's cheaper just to turn them into fertiliser. Of course, that's just the commercial industry. Home raised laying hens tend to live a comfortable life.
- jrace 8y ago
  >(beef) and lamb being the most ethical. How is slaughtering an 8week old animal (young lamb) ethical?
  - svrtknst 8y ago
    Well, how is slaughtering chickens ethical? For every egg-laying chicken out there, a male chicken is slaughtered, and both egg-laying and dairy milking harm the animals (for instance, compare avg. life span of a dairy cow with their natural life-span). There's also the factor of number of animals killed - One lamb feeds a lot more people than one chicken, yet both are living animals capable of pain and suffering. That's not to say that either is particularly ethical, but (as a vegan), I don't think you can easily say that eating eggs is intrinsically more ethical than eating meat.
    - jrace 8y ago
      Not all eggs come from industrial slaughter farms. At least where I live farm fresh eggs from chickens who live cage free are readily available. But the point of my comment us not that Lambs are less ethical than chickens...but killing and eating a few week old animal is hardly "more" ethical.
benj111 8y ago
"but that's a different debate" Is it? Seems quite central to the debate to me.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
egwynn 8y ago
"Pollo-pescetarianism” according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-vegetarianism#Comparison_of_vegan,_vegetarian,_and_semi-vegetarian_diets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-vegetarianism#Comparison_...
- rhacker 8y ago
  Nice chart didn't know existed ;) I actually was a Fruitarian once - basically just ate mangoes, oranges, apples, etc.. all day long for a month. It was incredible. Dad from India so a lot of vegetarianism in my blood I suppose. My wife on the other hand couldn't make it last too long. I wholeheartedly recommend fruitarianism if you can make it work (might not be easy).
chongli 8y ago
Arguably the one source of animal protein and fats that can be ethically sourced without harming the animal [1]. I think dairy also applies. Yes, lots of dairy operations in business today are cruel. But they don't have to be. There are dairy operations now that let the cattle decide when to be milked. The machines are fully automatic. The cattle need not be separated from their calves, either. With all of those systems in place, there is no real ethical difference between the dairy operation and a human mother using a breast pump and donating the excess to a milk bank.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Isn't there a deep ethical difference when the human has autonomy and the animal doesn't? I don't think it's immoral to keep livestock, I'm questioning whether the situations are analogous in an ethical sense.
  - chongli 8y ago
    You're providing the animal with a space to live, safety from predators, safe food and clean water, and the freedom to roam a potentially large landscape. Yeah, the animal is not autonomous. Do animals understand autonomy? Can they tell the difference? Maybe whales in capyivity can, but they are used to roaming the vast oceans. I think cattle would be perfectly happy in such an environment. Anthropomorphizing them is not helpful.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      I'm not anthropomorphizing the animal, I'm drawing a distinction between the ethical considerations when autonomy is a factor and when autonomy is not a factor. You compared them earlier, I questioned the value of that comparison (a human can give their milk; it is taken from the animal). None of that is an argument that it is necessarily unethical or immoral to take milk from an animal. Repeating the point: to me, the ethics of collecting milk from autonomous creatures that willingly give it are a separate thing from the ethics of taking milk from creatures that do not have autonomy.

seba_dos1 8y ago

The problem is that while it can be, it rarely is...

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
If the labels and laws are not to be trusted, you can always have your own chickens and look after their welfare yourself.
- harimau777 8y ago
  In much of the US that's against the law (and that's not even including people who live in apartments without yards).
rootusrootus 8y ago
But if it is important to you, then sourcing ethically produced eggs is not particularly difficult.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  People disagree about what's ethical.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    True. I could also probably find people who think cutting down plants isn't ethical.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Regardless, whatever your "ethical treatment of a fowl" criteria are, you are fairly likely to be able to find eggs that meet it.
throwaway400 8y ago
Take a drive out to the country sometime, you'll find farms that'll sell you eggs. They usually have a sign that says "fresh eggs".
- seba_dos1 8y ago
  Have you actually tried it? It's feasible if you occasionally eat some eggs, but if your diet is mostly based on eggs you simply won't have enough. The main reason of animal abuse on chicken farms is scaling the supply to reach the demand. Not even speaking about the fact that it's pretty difficult for somebody who lives in a city and doesn't own a car.

hudbuddy 8y ago

Worth noting that if you refuse to get fats from animals, it's important to get your DHA through algae oil.

hudbuddy 8y ago
I see now that the article mentions this

magic_beans 8y ago

I'm the same, and I happily eat farmer-raised eggs and mollusks. Mussels actively clean out water!

Insanity 8y ago

I'm a vegetarian not a vegan, and thus I eat eggs. But the 'ethically' sourced part is something I'm not that sure about. Sure they can be (and I get them from my grandparents who keep some chickens.. so that's ethical IMO). If you buy eggs from a shop, I'd say there is a fair chance that the animals are not treated that well. EDIT: I now realize many others have already made this point in other comments, oopsie.

ravenstine 8y ago
Most of what people think are "ethical" eggs that are sold in stores are basically a scam. Sure, they're eggs, but "free range" can mean the chickens have access to a little door and a puny plot of land for an hour, and "cage free" can mean the chickens never go outside. Pasture-raised eggs are your best bet, and that's all I'll buy, but even I'm skeptical because I've been burned so many times by believing my eggs were ethical.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  It depends on local regulations, but here in Denmark, organic eggs must meet the following regulations: -Maximum of 3000 chickens in a flock and a maximum of 6 chickens per square meter in the coops, which must allow daylight in. -The chickens must have access to perches and nests. -At least one third of the flooring must be loose bedding, such as straw or sand, to allow the chickens to dust bathe. -The chickens must have all-year access to outdoor areas with at least 4 square meters per chicken. It must be covered by grass or other vegetation, and must provide shelter from wind/weather. An outdoor area must stand unused every other year, for parasite prevention and to let the vegetation regrow. -Beak trimming is prohibited. -Feed must be organic and must include roughage. While it's not perfect, it's a damn sight better than battery caged hens.
dguo 8y ago
I use this "Organic Egg Scorecard" to help determine if I should buy eggs from a particular brand: https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/

J-dawg 8y ago

Unless you're referring to the very new "no-kill" eggs [0] (which AFAIK are only on sale in Germany), all eggs involve harming an animal. And that's before we get to any concerns about how the laying females are treated. I eat eggs myself, so I'm not preaching. I just sometimes wonder whether I should. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/22/worlds-first-no-kill-eggs-go-on-sale-in-berlin https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/22/worlds-f...

peteradio 8y ago
I'd encourage you to find a local source. Truly an insignificant cost difference. You can see how the sausage is made and make your peace with it. The more bold could even get a couple chickens 3-4 would have a small family drowning in eggs. Maybe it's not the same everywhere but there are tons of people with chickens in the Midwest.
- J-dawg 8y ago
  With respect, that doesn't really affect the point I was making. While I agree with you, the people/companies who supply those chickens to the local supplier still have no use for the male chicks. So even if you're buying eggs laid by hens that have a great life, you're still causing animals to be killed. Like I said, I have no right to be preachy. I just want more people to think clearly about this stuff. I hope the "no-kill" method becomes widespread.
  - peteradio 8y ago
    Oh I see, I did not consider roosters at all. Not really sure what you do about them. They are nice to have for protection in an open range setup. What exactly do they do with roosters in the no kill method?
    - J-dawg 8y ago
      They are never born/hatched - the new method allows the sex of an embryo to be determined while it's still in the egg. Effectively they are "aborted". Some roosters would obviously be preserved as breeding stock, just as they are now.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

As a (sometimes inconsistent) vegetarian who doesn't actively eat eggs (haven't bought them in a year), I'd actually argue that eggs (and diary) are actually less ethical than meat, with (pastured) beef and lamb being the most ethical. It seems less cruel for an animal to spend its life standing in a field than for it to be stuck laying eggs its whole life or being milked twice a day for as long as its useful, only to be led to the slaughterhouse. In fact, commercial chickens are the most cruel industry, chickens are so cheap they are treated like a bulk good, rather than like a living animal. Even free range chickens live a shit life. We talk about treating our servers like cattle, rather than pets. But cattle are actually treated very well, there's a lot of value in a single beast and it's worth looking after them when they're sick. Chickens are so cheap (they cost, what, $7 at the supermarket?) that if they're sick or injured, it's cheaper just to turn them into fertiliser. Of course, that's just the commercial industry. Home raised laying hens tend to live a comfortable life.

jrace 8y ago
>(beef) and lamb being the most ethical. How is slaughtering an 8week old animal (young lamb) ethical?
- svrtknst 8y ago
  Well, how is slaughtering chickens ethical? For every egg-laying chicken out there, a male chicken is slaughtered, and both egg-laying and dairy milking harm the animals (for instance, compare avg. life span of a dairy cow with their natural life-span). There's also the factor of number of animals killed - One lamb feeds a lot more people than one chicken, yet both are living animals capable of pain and suffering. That's not to say that either is particularly ethical, but (as a vegan), I don't think you can easily say that eating eggs is intrinsically more ethical than eating meat.
  - jrace 8y ago
    Not all eggs come from industrial slaughter farms. At least where I live farm fresh eggs from chickens who live cage free are readily available. But the point of my comment us not that Lambs are less ethical than chickens...but killing and eating a few week old animal is hardly "more" ethical.

benj111 8y ago

"but that's a different debate" Is it? Seems quite central to the debate to me.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

egwynn 8y ago

"Pollo-pescetarianism” according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-vegetarianism#Comparison_of_vegan,_vegetarian,_and_semi-vegetarian_diets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-vegetarianism#Comparison_...

rhacker 8y ago
Nice chart didn't know existed ;) I actually was a Fruitarian once - basically just ate mangoes, oranges, apples, etc.. all day long for a month. It was incredible. Dad from India so a lot of vegetarianism in my blood I suppose. My wife on the other hand couldn't make it last too long. I wholeheartedly recommend fruitarianism if you can make it work (might not be easy).

chongli 8y ago

Arguably the one source of animal protein and fats that can be ethically sourced without harming the animal [1]. I think dairy also applies. Yes, lots of dairy operations in business today are cruel. But they don't have to be. There are dairy operations now that let the cattle decide when to be milked. The machines are fully automatic. The cattle need not be separated from their calves, either. With all of those systems in place, there is no real ethical difference between the dairy operation and a human mother using a breast pump and donating the excess to a milk bank.

maxerickson 8y ago
Isn't there a deep ethical difference when the human has autonomy and the animal doesn't? I don't think it's immoral to keep livestock, I'm questioning whether the situations are analogous in an ethical sense.
- chongli 8y ago
  You're providing the animal with a space to live, safety from predators, safe food and clean water, and the freedom to roam a potentially large landscape. Yeah, the animal is not autonomous. Do animals understand autonomy? Can they tell the difference? Maybe whales in capyivity can, but they are used to roaming the vast oceans. I think cattle would be perfectly happy in such an environment. Anthropomorphizing them is not helpful.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    I'm not anthropomorphizing the animal, I'm drawing a distinction between the ethical considerations when autonomy is a factor and when autonomy is not a factor. You compared them earlier, I questioned the value of that comparison (a human can give their milk; it is taken from the animal). None of that is an argument that it is necessarily unethical or immoral to take milk from an animal. Repeating the point: to me, the ethics of collecting milk from autonomous creatures that willingly give it are a separate thing from the ethics of taking milk from creatures that do not have autonomy.