4 ms·

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever close

I say this kind of thing a lot, but I feel compelled to repeat myself. It seems like every week brings more evidence of oppressive governments edging ever closer toward a full-on 1984 nightmare scenario. At this point the decision tree facing privacy activists, those concerned with human rights, and those who support the expansion of western moral aspirations is unambiguous. Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them. Stop using their software. Nine times out of ten you don't need it. Don't support corporations that enhance the efficiency of the Chinese government's oppression in the name of profits. Don't accept the idea that it's okay for giant corporations to bend to whatever demands (however ominous) an authoritarian government hands to them in the name of profit. Exceptions arise, and no one's behavior is perfect. But the 1/10 case where you absolutely MUST use a certain surveillance app or buy a certain widget made by slaves in another country is not an excuse for throwing your hands up and capitulating in the other nine cases you encounter every day. Many of us on HN have the option to not support oppressive systems - I implore you to exercise that option so that others may gain the ability to choose as well.

true_religion 8y ago
Would you support a general government embargo on Chinese trade in your country?
- noir_lord 8y ago
  I absolutely would and not just because of the way China treats it's citizens - putting all the global production of strategically important electronics in the hands of one country with a proven track record of well..almost everything seems like a fairly poor idea.
skybrian 8y ago
This is far too large a problem for individual buying decisions to make much of a dent. But if you're against trade, maybe tariffs will do it?
- Brain_Thief 8y ago
  1) The societies of the world are composed of individuals. Individual actions, if appropriately cultivated and communicated, may become group actions. Individual actions absolutely matter. 2) At no point did I claim to be against trade.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Encouraging people to not buy stuff from an entire country or do business with them (basically an informal boycott) sure sounds like a way of penalizing trade, but much less effective. If that's not what you meant, maybe explain it again?
kuzehanka 8y ago
> Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them. China is buying up realestate and farm land in every major western nation. China is buying critical infrastructure across the globe via the Belt and Road initiative[1][2]. China has become too big and too powerful to be stopped by mere consumer action. They are not planning to wage a war on democracy, they're planning to simply subsume it with soft power and emigration. To stop China's hellish vision of the future from becoming reality, the leaders of the developed world need to hit it with trade controls as hard as they did Cuba. But so far it seems that everyone is choosing to sell out their own country for those sweet Chinese RMB[3]. I see the sign of the times when I go to the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere (Chadstone, Melbourne, Australia) and see little stands advertising AU realestate in all-Chinese banners, staffed by Chinese agents who don't even speak English. The citizens of the country they're selling are not worth talking to. [1] https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/ https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la... [2] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2016/04/16/a-despots-guide-to-foreign-aid https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2016/04/16/... [3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-huang-xiangmo-wants-political-donations-back/10794726 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-h...
- Brain_Thief 8y ago
  While I understand your point, I strongly disagree with the implication that individual actions are meaningless. People should not accept a "death by a thousand cuts" behavioral paradigm when it comes to moral decisions in the realm of consumption. Voting is a part of the situation, but voting is an individual choice just like purchasing decisions.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    The thing is, spontaneous order mostly doesn't happen. You need organized campaigns to make voting meaningful; if everyone votes for a different candidate you're not going to get anywhere and will usually lose to parties that are organized. The same is true in the market; individuals can't make good buying decisions about things that aren't visible without labeling by standards organizations or stores that set standards themselves. While having popular support is essential, an organization is more than just the sum of individual actions and this is what leadership is about.

true_religion 8y ago

Would you support a general government embargo on Chinese trade in your country?

noir_lord 8y ago
I absolutely would and not just because of the way China treats it's citizens - putting all the global production of strategically important electronics in the hands of one country with a proven track record of well..almost everything seems like a fairly poor idea.

skybrian 8y ago

This is far too large a problem for individual buying decisions to make much of a dent. But if you're against trade, maybe tariffs will do it?

Brain_Thief 8y ago
1) The societies of the world are composed of individuals. Individual actions, if appropriately cultivated and communicated, may become group actions. Individual actions absolutely matter. 2) At no point did I claim to be against trade.
- skybrian 8y ago
  Encouraging people to not buy stuff from an entire country or do business with them (basically an informal boycott) sure sounds like a way of penalizing trade, but much less effective. If that's not what you meant, maybe explain it again?

kuzehanka 8y ago

> Are you uncomfortable with China's aggressive censorship, human rights abuses, and surveillance? Stop buying shit from them. China is buying up realestate and farm land in every major western nation. China is buying critical infrastructure across the globe via the Belt and Road initiative[1][2]. China has become too big and too powerful to be stopped by mere consumer action. They are not planning to wage a war on democracy, they're planning to simply subsume it with soft power and emigration. To stop China's hellish vision of the future from becoming reality, the leaders of the developed world need to hit it with trade controls as hard as they did Cuba. But so far it seems that everyone is choosing to sell out their own country for those sweet Chinese RMB[3]. I see the sign of the times when I go to the largest shopping centre in the Southern Hemisphere (Chadstone, Melbourne, Australia) and see little stands advertising AU realestate in all-Chinese banners, staffed by Chinese agents who don't even speak English. The citizens of the country they're selling are not worth talking to. [1] https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/ https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la... [2] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2016/04/16/a-despots-guide-to-foreign-aid https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2016/04/16/... [3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-huang-xiangmo-wants-political-donations-back/10794726 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-h...

Brain_Thief 8y ago
While I understand your point, I strongly disagree with the implication that individual actions are meaningless. People should not accept a "death by a thousand cuts" behavioral paradigm when it comes to moral decisions in the realm of consumption. Voting is a part of the situation, but voting is an individual choice just like purchasing decisions.
- skybrian 8y ago
  The thing is, spontaneous order mostly doesn't happen. You need organized campaigns to make voting meaningful; if everyone votes for a different candidate you're not going to get anywhere and will usually lose to parties that are organized. The same is true in the market; individuals can't make good buying decisions about things that aren't visible without labeling by standards organizations or stores that set standards themselves. While having popular support is essential, an organization is more than just the sum of individual actions and this is what leadership is about.