6 ms·

1. Become divorced from the outcome. Sit down and think what it is you'd like to be doing if you weren't doing what you are, because these things can always go

by godDLL 8y ago

1. Become divorced from the outcome. Sit down and think what it is you'd like to be doing if you weren't doing what you are, because these things can always go either way. Make two plans. 2. Gather evidence FOR paying you more. You need more. Someone is getting more doing the things you do. You're doing more than what is expected of you. Things hinge on you. Make some evidence if it doesn't yet exist. 3. Gather evidence AGAINST paying you more, and prepare to refute it. Make some, if it doesn't exist yet and prepare to give up some things or distance yourself from some things. Get into your manager's head for that. Talk to them: say, if I (you) needed help with what you're doing, what would they be prepared to offer? Prepare using that. 4. Spend at least two weeks doing the above. Then schedule a morning meeting with your manager, right after lunch is best. This will be hard, better have shuffle the world around you in your favor. Good luck. 0. Read some of this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19542087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19542087 if you get stuck.

mcv 8y ago
And when it doesn't work, find another job that pays more and leave. Don't wait for a counter offer; a counter offer is just them admitting that they indeed didn't pay you what you're worth, and they're only willing to do so now because you're forcing them. That's a lousy basis for a work relationship. Find a better job and leave. You wouldn't be the only developer for whom that's the primary method of advancement.
- godDLL 8y ago
  I see you have some experience with this. It does go one of two ways, not always "when it doesn't work". But many times your salary will indeed be capped in some manner you're not aware of. Be prepared to lose this negotiation, but don't go in thinking that you will. That will set you up to fail.
  - mcv 8y ago
    > I see you have some experience with this. I don't, fortunately. But it's a recurring topic, and the conclusion at the end is always the same: counter offers are "too little too late", and possibly even a trap: maybe they just want to retain you for long enough to train your replacement, after which you will be fired and the new job you found will have been taken by someone else.
  - x0x0 8y ago
    This whole discussion, however, is divorced from how healthy companies function. In healthy places, what it takes to promote someone to the next level and his or her progress on that is a regular subject of discussion in his or her scheduled 1-1s with his or her manager. So this whole tree which assumes that what the next level is, what that looks like for a specific employee, and that employees progress on attaining that level are entirely unknown seems just strange.
- statictype 8y ago
  This is true for large companies. For cash-strapped organizations (like startups) they could really want you to stay but would rather not stretch themselves thin unless they were forced to.
  - godDLL 8y ago
    I got smaller raises by negotiation, I got bigger raises by changing jobs; but the most satisfaction I got was by realizing that I perceive the whole thing as rotten and changing occupations altogether. Your own mileage may vary.
    - alexhutcheson 8y ago
      What do you do now?
      - godDLL 8y ago
        As I've written elsewhere I do "an honest day's work" type of gig, specifically I go up and down a rope for purposes of tree-trimming and construction. I enjoy it very much. Never got to use my athletic build before that, so that now I feel like a master of two out of three domains: physical and intellectual, in my life. Spiritual is in development :)
- twodave 8y ago
  This isn't necessarily true. You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. Until you actually receive a superior offer, neither you nor your employer knows that you're worth more than you're being paid. Obviously there are employers out there who are underpaying their employees, but just because you find out you aren't being paid as much as possible for your skill set doesn't mean your employer is trying to stiff you. That said, you should have a pretty good idea of what you're worth, and if you don't then that's on you. There is basically zero risk in going out and interviewing even if you aren't looking for a change, and it's a great way to establish the market for yourself. That market can change rapidly (at least while you're in the lower/middle of it).
  - mcv 8y ago
    > You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. Or you're worth what the value of your work is. There are different ways to define this. Are things that are free automatically worthless? The idea that you become more valuable to your old employer only once there's another employer willing to hire you, is bizarre. Your work for your old employer doesn't change. How can your value suddenly change? Your old employer was clearly underpaying you because they could afford to. Only when you get other options, are they forced to pay you what you're worth.
    - cableshaft 8y ago
      > Your work for your old employer doesn't change. I kind of wish that was true. What I do now is almost completely different from what I was hired to do at my current job. Other people leaving, me getting to inherit their projects and responsibilities on top of my own, and yet my boss (who is also brand new because my previous boss resigned recently) wants to get settled and get to know me before recommending a promotion. Yeah, I'm not waiting that long. For him it might have only been a few weeks, but for me it's been over three years.
      - mcv 8y ago
        Did all of that change because you got an offer from another company? Because that's the issue we're discussing here: whether it's the other offer that makes you more valuable, or the added responsibilities.
- TallGuyShort 8y ago
  I've noticed a few companies seem to be the ones many of my former colleagues flock to, and they rarely stay there for very long. My suspicion is that these companies know they need our specific talent, and use pay (or a similarly narrow carrot) to poach them when they have little else to offer. Then it turns out to be not worth it for one reason or another, and they quickly leave. Sometimes these people seem to go through a series of very short jobs at the same set of companies before settling somewhere else. When I speak with these former colleagues, usually pay or rate of advancement is the key driver, and often they're someone I'm not surprised wasn't advancing or getting raises quickly. I agree about counter-offers being a lousy basis for a work relationship. It's like getting married because someone says "propose-or-we-break-up". But also don't just chase a minor raise at the cost of all else. Know what you're genuinely worth. Be almost as suspicious of someone who's offering you more money than you're worth as you are of someone who's offering you less money than you're worth. It could be a sign that they're struggling to retain people or attract people, and are throwing money at the problem (money's not always the problem). It could be that they have unsustainable growth, and aren't watching expenses and are just trying to increase headcount. It could be your current employer is an exploitative jerk, but just be aware.
burtonator 8y ago
> Gather evidence AGAINST paying you more, and prepare to refute it. THIS.. this part is very important. Also remember to have a BATNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat... another key point is don't settle for 'we will review this next quarter' or something along those lines which is just their strategy to play for time. The only argument AGAINST this is that if they have a clear review process outlined when you joined the company. Most companies want to batch up these operations so that they're not constantly reviewing salaries at unusual times. My point is that if they ARE reviewing you don't let them punt on the decision. IF they do then start looking for a new gig.

by godDLL 8y ago

mcv 8y ago

And when it doesn't work, find another job that pays more and leave. Don't wait for a counter offer; a counter offer is just them admitting that they indeed didn't pay you what you're worth, and they're only willing to do so now because you're forcing them. That's a lousy basis for a work relationship. Find a better job and leave. You wouldn't be the only developer for whom that's the primary method of advancement.

godDLL 8y ago
I see you have some experience with this. It does go one of two ways, not always "when it doesn't work". But many times your salary will indeed be capped in some manner you're not aware of. Be prepared to lose this negotiation, but don't go in thinking that you will. That will set you up to fail.
- mcv 8y ago
  > I see you have some experience with this. I don't, fortunately. But it's a recurring topic, and the conclusion at the end is always the same: counter offers are "too little too late", and possibly even a trap: maybe they just want to retain you for long enough to train your replacement, after which you will be fired and the new job you found will have been taken by someone else.
- x0x0 8y ago
  This whole discussion, however, is divorced from how healthy companies function. In healthy places, what it takes to promote someone to the next level and his or her progress on that is a regular subject of discussion in his or her scheduled 1-1s with his or her manager. So this whole tree which assumes that what the next level is, what that looks like for a specific employee, and that employees progress on attaining that level are entirely unknown seems just strange.
statictype 8y ago
This is true for large companies. For cash-strapped organizations (like startups) they could really want you to stay but would rather not stretch themselves thin unless they were forced to.
- godDLL 8y ago
  I got smaller raises by negotiation, I got bigger raises by changing jobs; but the most satisfaction I got was by realizing that I perceive the whole thing as rotten and changing occupations altogether. Your own mileage may vary.
  - alexhutcheson 8y ago
    What do you do now?
    - godDLL 8y ago
      As I've written elsewhere I do "an honest day's work" type of gig, specifically I go up and down a rope for purposes of tree-trimming and construction. I enjoy it very much. Never got to use my athletic build before that, so that now I feel like a master of two out of three domains: physical and intellectual, in my life. Spiritual is in development :)
twodave 8y ago
This isn't necessarily true. You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. Until you actually receive a superior offer, neither you nor your employer knows that you're worth more than you're being paid. Obviously there are employers out there who are underpaying their employees, but just because you find out you aren't being paid as much as possible for your skill set doesn't mean your employer is trying to stiff you. That said, you should have a pretty good idea of what you're worth, and if you don't then that's on you. There is basically zero risk in going out and interviewing even if you aren't looking for a change, and it's a great way to establish the market for yourself. That market can change rapidly (at least while you're in the lower/middle of it).
- mcv 8y ago
  > You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. Or you're worth what the value of your work is. There are different ways to define this. Are things that are free automatically worthless? The idea that you become more valuable to your old employer only once there's another employer willing to hire you, is bizarre. Your work for your old employer doesn't change. How can your value suddenly change? Your old employer was clearly underpaying you because they could afford to. Only when you get other options, are they forced to pay you what you're worth.
  - cableshaft 8y ago
    > Your work for your old employer doesn't change. I kind of wish that was true. What I do now is almost completely different from what I was hired to do at my current job. Other people leaving, me getting to inherit their projects and responsibilities on top of my own, and yet my boss (who is also brand new because my previous boss resigned recently) wants to get settled and get to know me before recommending a promotion. Yeah, I'm not waiting that long. For him it might have only been a few weeks, but for me it's been over three years.
    - mcv 8y ago
      Did all of that change because you got an offer from another company? Because that's the issue we're discussing here: whether it's the other offer that makes you more valuable, or the added responsibilities.
TallGuyShort 8y ago
I've noticed a few companies seem to be the ones many of my former colleagues flock to, and they rarely stay there for very long. My suspicion is that these companies know they need our specific talent, and use pay (or a similarly narrow carrot) to poach them when they have little else to offer. Then it turns out to be not worth it for one reason or another, and they quickly leave. Sometimes these people seem to go through a series of very short jobs at the same set of companies before settling somewhere else. When I speak with these former colleagues, usually pay or rate of advancement is the key driver, and often they're someone I'm not surprised wasn't advancing or getting raises quickly. I agree about counter-offers being a lousy basis for a work relationship. It's like getting married because someone says "propose-or-we-break-up". But also don't just chase a minor raise at the cost of all else. Know what you're genuinely worth. Be almost as suspicious of someone who's offering you more money than you're worth as you are of someone who's offering you less money than you're worth. It could be a sign that they're struggling to retain people or attract people, and are throwing money at the problem (money's not always the problem). It could be that they have unsustainable growth, and aren't watching expenses and are just trying to increase headcount. It could be your current employer is an exploitative jerk, but just be aware.

burtonator 8y ago

> Gather evidence AGAINST paying you more, and prepare to refute it. THIS.. this part is very important. Also remember to have a BATNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat... another key point is don't settle for 'we will review this next quarter' or something along those lines which is just their strategy to play for time. The only argument AGAINST this is that if they have a clear review process outlined when you joined the company. Most companies want to batch up these operations so that they're not constantly reviewing salaries at unusual times. My point is that if they ARE reviewing you don't let them punt on the decision. IF they do then start looking for a new gig.