5 ms·

I think this fits my understanding as well, though I think you could say the same thing about a lot of things e.g. don’t hire an expensive personal trainer when

I think this fits my understanding as well, though I think you could say the same thing about a lot of things e.g. don’t hire an expensive personal trainer when you can just watch YouTube videos and learn to work out on your own. For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money.

learc83 8y ago
>For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. I definitely do as well. The problem I see is that the ROI just isn't worth it with the common 12 week bootcamps. It's not that you couldn't come up with a bootcamp program that was worth it, it's that I don't think 12 weeks is long enough. Look at skilled trade apprenticeships--they all take much longer. Even something like cosmetology school is a year long program. If you had a program that was a year long and was priced similarly to community college, I think that could be worth paying for. >They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money. The problem is that those things aren't remotely comparable. I think the problem is that bootcamps are what for-profit education ends up looking like. 12 weeks isn’t based on how long it takes someone to become proficient, it’s based on how long people are willing to go with no income.
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  Right, but if 12 weeks was too short to get a job then how are people getting jobs...? You’re saying that the people who do get jobs would’ve gotten them had they gone through the program or not? Looks like Lambda school is 9 months now (I though it was 6 but perhaps they increased it). That is equivalent to a full academic year...whats your experience with Lambda school grads and are they objectively much better than one graduating from an in person one?
  - austenallred 8y ago
    Hour for hour 9 months of a Lambda School schedule is actually closer to two academic years.
    - MechanicalTwerk 8y ago
      Yea but this is sort of akin to cramming. Some of the deeper stuff in CS and engineering, at least for me, took time to ponder and spaced repetition. I don't think 1500 hours or whatever it is over 9 months is quite the same as 1500 over 2 years.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        But most companies don’t care about the “deeper stuff”. Most development isn’t rocket science. You don’t need deep understanding of computer science writing yet another software as a service CRUD app or most bespoke internal corporate tools that will never see the light of day outside of the company.
        learc83 8y ago
        I'd argue that most companies do care about theory based on the kinds of questions that come up in job interviews. A lot of this is cargo culting sure, and maybe some of them care about it for the wrong reasons, but they do. >You don’t need deep understanding of computer science writing yet another software as a service CRUD app or most bespoke internal corporate tools that will never see the light of day outside of the company. Sure provided you’re having your hand held by someone on your team who does have a deeper understanding--basically acting as an apprentice. There's nothing wrong with apprenticeship, but you also don't need a bootcamp to prepare your for that. And if you ever want to move beyond writing CRUD apps, you’re going to need to make your way into much more complex territory at some point.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Let’s take TurboTax as something I would call a complex piece of software. I’ve never worked on TurboTax, but I have had to develop software with a more complex set of business requirements. The complexity in much of software engineering comes from understanding the business requirements translating that to code and making a system usable. Most development is not about leetCode and DS&A. The most we can expect from a junior developer who just graduated from college with a CS degree is for them “not to eat the chalk.” At least the boot camp grad can hit the ground running and add features. The type of theory companies care about isn’t how to invert a binary tree and whether you know how to write a merge sort. Heck even C had the built in qsort that was good enough.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  There are multiple companies founded around your observation that 12 weeks doesn’t cut it. Lambda School takes nine months and Turing School takes seven months. Both are much more expensive than community college but they also provide far more support and instructional hours than you’d get in the equivalent time at a community college and Lambda School’s programme integrates the job hunt. Turing School can arrange loans for tuition ($20,000) and Lambda School’s students almost all pay via an income share agreement, where once they’re earning over $50,000 a year they pay 17% of pre-tax salary up to a maximum of $30,000 over two years. Neither of their programmes are comparable to a Master’s in CS but they're roughly comparable to a graduate diploma or an assiciate’s degree. Lambda School’ Front End curriculum https://lambdaschool.com/courses/cs/web/ https://lambdaschool.com/courses/cs/web/ Turing School’s https://www.turing.io/programs/front-end-engineering/ https://www.turing.io/programs/front-end-engineering/
  - learc83 8y ago
    For unaccredited online programs, I think both of those options are far too expensive. Edit: a comment below pointed out that Turing isn't online.
    - randomacct3847 8y ago
      Lambda is online, Turing is in person in Denver.
      - learc83 8y ago
        I also noticed that they are a non-profit, which gives me a bit more confidence. I'd still be uncomfortable advising someone to pay $20k for an unaccredited program.
        randomacct3847 8y ago
        You do realize there are millions of college students who pay $200k over 4 years to attend accredited programs that graduate with no discernible skills, right?

learc83 8y ago

>For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. I definitely do as well. The problem I see is that the ROI just isn't worth it with the common 12 week bootcamps. It's not that you couldn't come up with a bootcamp program that was worth it, it's that I don't think 12 weeks is long enough. Look at skilled trade apprenticeships--they all take much longer. Even something like cosmetology school is a year long program. If you had a program that was a year long and was priced similarly to community college, I think that could be worth paying for. >They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money. The problem is that those things aren't remotely comparable. I think the problem is that bootcamps are what for-profit education ends up looking like. 12 weeks isn’t based on how long it takes someone to become proficient, it’s based on how long people are willing to go with no income.

randomacct3847 8y ago
Right, but if 12 weeks was too short to get a job then how are people getting jobs...? You’re saying that the people who do get jobs would’ve gotten them had they gone through the program or not? Looks like Lambda school is 9 months now (I though it was 6 but perhaps they increased it). That is equivalent to a full academic year...whats your experience with Lambda school grads and are they objectively much better than one graduating from an in person one?
- austenallred 8y ago
  Hour for hour 9 months of a Lambda School schedule is actually closer to two academic years.
  - MechanicalTwerk 8y ago
    Yea but this is sort of akin to cramming. Some of the deeper stuff in CS and engineering, at least for me, took time to ponder and spaced repetition. I don't think 1500 hours or whatever it is over 9 months is quite the same as 1500 over 2 years.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      But most companies don’t care about the “deeper stuff”. Most development isn’t rocket science. You don’t need deep understanding of computer science writing yet another software as a service CRUD app or most bespoke internal corporate tools that will never see the light of day outside of the company.
      - learc83 8y ago
        I'd argue that most companies do care about theory based on the kinds of questions that come up in job interviews. A lot of this is cargo culting sure, and maybe some of them care about it for the wrong reasons, but they do. >You don’t need deep understanding of computer science writing yet another software as a service CRUD app or most bespoke internal corporate tools that will never see the light of day outside of the company. Sure provided you’re having your hand held by someone on your team who does have a deeper understanding--basically acting as an apprentice. There's nothing wrong with apprenticeship, but you also don't need a bootcamp to prepare your for that. And if you ever want to move beyond writing CRUD apps, you’re going to need to make your way into much more complex territory at some point.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Let’s take TurboTax as something I would call a complex piece of software. I’ve never worked on TurboTax, but I have had to develop software with a more complex set of business requirements. The complexity in much of software engineering comes from understanding the business requirements translating that to code and making a system usable. Most development is not about leetCode and DS&A. The most we can expect from a junior developer who just graduated from college with a CS degree is for them “not to eat the chalk.” At least the boot camp grad can hit the ground running and add features. The type of theory companies care about isn’t how to invert a binary tree and whether you know how to write a merge sort. Heck even C had the built in qsort that was good enough.
barry-cotter 8y ago
There are multiple companies founded around your observation that 12 weeks doesn’t cut it. Lambda School takes nine months and Turing School takes seven months. Both are much more expensive than community college but they also provide far more support and instructional hours than you’d get in the equivalent time at a community college and Lambda School’s programme integrates the job hunt. Turing School can arrange loans for tuition ($20,000) and Lambda School’s students almost all pay via an income share agreement, where once they’re earning over $50,000 a year they pay 17% of pre-tax salary up to a maximum of $30,000 over two years. Neither of their programmes are comparable to a Master’s in CS but they're roughly comparable to a graduate diploma or an assiciate’s degree. Lambda School’ Front End curriculum https://lambdaschool.com/courses/cs/web/ https://lambdaschool.com/courses/cs/web/ Turing School’s https://www.turing.io/programs/front-end-engineering/ https://www.turing.io/programs/front-end-engineering/
- learc83 8y ago
  For unaccredited online programs, I think both of those options are far too expensive. Edit: a comment below pointed out that Turing isn't online.
  - randomacct3847 8y ago
    Lambda is online, Turing is in person in Denver.
    - learc83 8y ago
      I also noticed that they are a non-profit, which gives me a bit more confidence. I'd still be uncomfortable advising someone to pay $20k for an unaccredited program.
      - randomacct3847 8y ago
        You do realize there are millions of college students who pay $200k over 4 years to attend accredited programs that graduate with no discernible skills, right?