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Interesting. Ecuador's current government is quite leftist, and very friendly with Chavez, despite close ties to the US. There used to be a huge US naval base

Interesting. Ecuador's current government is quite leftist, and very friendly with Chavez, despite close ties to the US. There used to be a huge US naval base in Manta, although it was closed when I was there this summer. While Internet coverage is spotty enough to disuade permanent residence for someone like Assange, I could see him trying to get some support in South American countries. He's helped by two things: The Internet culture there is still very Wild West, 1998-style, and they absolutely despise the US (with good reason). In fact, the one constant in South America is how much they hate the US, although attitudes toward individual Americans varied.

rbanffy 16y ago
> In fact, the one constant in South America is how much they hate the US I am not sure where you have been or what you have experienced, but I wouldn't call it a constant. I never noticed this widespread hatred towards the US you mention in Brazil, Argentina or Chile. I understand most of the northern Latin America may harbor strong negative feelings towards the US, but I can tell you Brazilians really don't care that much. Besides that, it's really childish to hate a country.
- Gupie 16y ago
  Distance makes the heart grow fonder
- redthrowaway 16y ago
  Sorry, you're correct. I was inaccurate with my claim. The antipathy towards the US is much stronger in Central America and the Andean regions (Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, etc) As for being childish, the US has done a whole lot to earn that enmity. I'd recommend reading Open veins of Latin America, by Eduardo Galeano. It's a difficult read, due in no small part to the author's support of the Cuban Revolution and Castro's government. It helps, however, to recognize that the book was written in 1971, long before it became apparent that the Cuban experiment with Communism had some serious humanitarian costs, despite its successes. At the time, Cuba was the only real counterpoint to American economic imperialism in Latin America, so it's easy to see why he would offer such strong support for that regime. Despite that, the book is meticulously researched and cited, and many of the events it details are frankly despicable. It's also by no means an attack on the US, as it covers 500 years of history since the Spanish invasion of the continent. It really is a good read.
  - masklinn 16y ago
    > As for being childish, the US has done a whole lot to earn that enmity. That's quite an understatement.
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      Some people have done a lot, sometimes with government support, but those are a tiny minority when compared to the people they represented. You shouldn't judge a people by the actions of their leaders.
      - alex_c 16y ago
        > You shouldn't judge a people by the actions of their leaders. That becomes a difficult argument beyond a certain point. Especially if the leaders are (in theory, at least) representing the people.
        rbanffy 16y ago
        The point is that "in theory" a democracy represents the ideals of all its people. Usually, a democracy represents a fraction of the will of a people. Plus, the fraction that agrees with everything the leader does is even smaller.
        potatolicious 16y ago
        The problem that line of argument runs into is that the American people has also failed to hold its democratically elected government responsible for the shadier things its done (I'll stop just short of calling them atrocities, though some of it crosses that line). Hell, the sorry state that much of Latin America is in right now is largely directly attributable to the direct intervention of the USA (see redthrowaway's post re: coups and installation of brutal military dictatorships friendly to US interests). These crimes have essentially gone unpunished, or hell, unanswered entirely back at home. When the government purports to represent the people, the people rightly bear responsibility for its actions. While it is unrealistic to expect said government to do no wrong and always abide by the democratic principles on which it is founded, at the very least its abuses, once known, need to be reigned in by the very people who put them in charge. This is largely not happening.
- zephyrfalcon 16y ago
  The number of times the US have tried to meddle in these countries' business may have something to do with it: http://www.zompist.com/latam.html http://www.zompist.com/latam.html
- fabiandesimone 16y ago
  >I understand most of the northern Latin America may harbor strong negative feelings towards the US That is what Chavez wants you to think. I agree there is some part of the population in Venezuela that does not like the US but I think is mainly because they are being told not to like them. I believe that most of Venezuelans have always looked up to the US and are pro-yankee. Given the choice (specially Chavez supporters) will prefer the american way of life or the american dream over this new Socialism of the 21st century.
  - redthrowaway 16y ago
    Sorry, what? Was this intended to be satire? The US has done a great many things to make itself very hated in Latin America, and that is far from limited to, or even primarily in, Venezuela.
    - compay 16y ago
      Just curious, what's your experience living or traveling in Latin America? Have you seen or experienced this widespread hatred first hand? I obviously don't deny that the USA committed terrible abuses in Latin America, but I have yet to see the widespread resentment you speak of; not everybody walks around with a copy of The Open Veins in their pocket down here. Latin Americans can be as ignorant or apathetic of history as anybody in the USA. I am not a Chavez supporter, but the claim that he or many Venezuelans "hate the USA" lacks nuance to say the least. If that were the case, Johann Santana would be reviled as a traitor for playing baseball in the USA, rather then being received by Chavez as a hero.
      - redthrowaway 16y ago
        I wouldn't call it widespread hatred. I certainly didn't see any evidence of hatred towards individual Americans. It's more a widespread opinion that the United States is at best questionably moral. There are certainly many who think it is evil, and if you ask the average person on the street they'd probably have mostly negative feelings towards the US. I haven't been to the Middle East, but I imagine the sentiment to be very similar. People have an odd way of resenting you when you back brutal dictators that kill thousands of civilians.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > Besides that, it's really childish to hate a country. Perhaps, but it's rather mature to hate a country's government, particularly when that government is busily taking away people's freedoms, e.g. with the ACTA treaty.
  - cabalamat 16y ago
    > it's rather mature to hate a country's government On reflection, I think this is too strongly worded. Hating a government can be counterproductive because the emotion can get in the way of devising an optimium strategy to counter what one doesn't like. "Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment." -- Michael Corleone, Godfather III

rbanffy 16y ago

> In fact, the one constant in South America is how much they hate the US I am not sure where you have been or what you have experienced, but I wouldn't call it a constant. I never noticed this widespread hatred towards the US you mention in Brazil, Argentina or Chile. I understand most of the northern Latin America may harbor strong negative feelings towards the US, but I can tell you Brazilians really don't care that much. Besides that, it's really childish to hate a country.

Gupie 16y ago
Distance makes the heart grow fonder
redthrowaway 16y ago
Sorry, you're correct. I was inaccurate with my claim. The antipathy towards the US is much stronger in Central America and the Andean regions (Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, etc) As for being childish, the US has done a whole lot to earn that enmity. I'd recommend reading Open veins of Latin America, by Eduardo Galeano. It's a difficult read, due in no small part to the author's support of the Cuban Revolution and Castro's government. It helps, however, to recognize that the book was written in 1971, long before it became apparent that the Cuban experiment with Communism had some serious humanitarian costs, despite its successes. At the time, Cuba was the only real counterpoint to American economic imperialism in Latin America, so it's easy to see why he would offer such strong support for that regime. Despite that, the book is meticulously researched and cited, and many of the events it details are frankly despicable. It's also by no means an attack on the US, as it covers 500 years of history since the Spanish invasion of the continent. It really is a good read.
- masklinn 16y ago
  > As for being childish, the US has done a whole lot to earn that enmity. That's quite an understatement.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    Some people have done a lot, sometimes with government support, but those are a tiny minority when compared to the people they represented. You shouldn't judge a people by the actions of their leaders.
    - alex_c 16y ago
      > You shouldn't judge a people by the actions of their leaders. That becomes a difficult argument beyond a certain point. Especially if the leaders are (in theory, at least) representing the people.
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        The point is that "in theory" a democracy represents the ideals of all its people. Usually, a democracy represents a fraction of the will of a people. Plus, the fraction that agrees with everything the leader does is even smaller.
        potatolicious 16y ago
        The problem that line of argument runs into is that the American people has also failed to hold its democratically elected government responsible for the shadier things its done (I'll stop just short of calling them atrocities, though some of it crosses that line). Hell, the sorry state that much of Latin America is in right now is largely directly attributable to the direct intervention of the USA (see redthrowaway's post re: coups and installation of brutal military dictatorships friendly to US interests). These crimes have essentially gone unpunished, or hell, unanswered entirely back at home. When the government purports to represent the people, the people rightly bear responsibility for its actions. While it is unrealistic to expect said government to do no wrong and always abide by the democratic principles on which it is founded, at the very least its abuses, once known, need to be reigned in by the very people who put them in charge. This is largely not happening.
zephyrfalcon 16y ago
The number of times the US have tried to meddle in these countries' business may have something to do with it: http://www.zompist.com/latam.html http://www.zompist.com/latam.html
fabiandesimone 16y ago
>I understand most of the northern Latin America may harbor strong negative feelings towards the US That is what Chavez wants you to think. I agree there is some part of the population in Venezuela that does not like the US but I think is mainly because they are being told not to like them. I believe that most of Venezuelans have always looked up to the US and are pro-yankee. Given the choice (specially Chavez supporters) will prefer the american way of life or the american dream over this new Socialism of the 21st century.
- redthrowaway 16y ago
  Sorry, what? Was this intended to be satire? The US has done a great many things to make itself very hated in Latin America, and that is far from limited to, or even primarily in, Venezuela.
  - compay 16y ago
    Just curious, what's your experience living or traveling in Latin America? Have you seen or experienced this widespread hatred first hand? I obviously don't deny that the USA committed terrible abuses in Latin America, but I have yet to see the widespread resentment you speak of; not everybody walks around with a copy of The Open Veins in their pocket down here. Latin Americans can be as ignorant or apathetic of history as anybody in the USA. I am not a Chavez supporter, but the claim that he or many Venezuelans "hate the USA" lacks nuance to say the least. If that were the case, Johann Santana would be reviled as a traitor for playing baseball in the USA, rather then being received by Chavez as a hero.
    - redthrowaway 16y ago
      I wouldn't call it widespread hatred. I certainly didn't see any evidence of hatred towards individual Americans. It's more a widespread opinion that the United States is at best questionably moral. There are certainly many who think it is evil, and if you ask the average person on the street they'd probably have mostly negative feelings towards the US. I haven't been to the Middle East, but I imagine the sentiment to be very similar. People have an odd way of resenting you when you back brutal dictators that kill thousands of civilians.
cabalamat 16y ago
> Besides that, it's really childish to hate a country. Perhaps, but it's rather mature to hate a country's government, particularly when that government is busily taking away people's freedoms, e.g. with the ACTA treaty.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  > it's rather mature to hate a country's government On reflection, I think this is too strongly worded. Hating a government can be counterproductive because the emotion can get in the way of devising an optimium strategy to counter what one doesn't like. "Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment." -- Michael Corleone, Godfather III