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I've worked as a bootcamp instructor, I've hired people from bootcamps, and I worked as self-taught programmer for years before going back to get my CS degree.

I've worked as a bootcamp instructor, I've hired people from bootcamps, and I worked as self-taught programmer for years before going back to get my CS degree. From my experience, the very top tier bootcamps basically function as an extended job interview. They select for people who either already have most of the skills needed, or who possess an extreme natural aptitude. Graduates from these programs can be effective programmers out of the gate. However, the pool of people who can pass these programs is extremely limited. The failure of many top tier bootcamps to scale points to this. As for graduates from other programs, I place them in 2 buckets. The first is people who have substantial additional experience--they’ve been programming as a hobby for years, they learned python to automate work in their old career, they have a related career or degree etc... These candidates can also be extremely effective. The second is candidates who have little to no experience beyond the bootcamp. These candidates from what I’ve seen are almost never a good fit. They generally come in below the level of a 2nd year college intern. 12 weeks just isn't enough time--barring extreme outliers. The problem is that people who fall into the first set of candidates tend to be effective with or without bootcamp. My advice is that if you want to be a programmer, don’t pay thousands of dollars for bootcamp. Either take the time to go to school and learn the theory, or learn on your own through free or lower cost materials if you’re happy with CRUD jobs. There are other ways to level up into more interesting work, but most people won’t learn the boring parts without external motivation and structure, and a CS degree is the easiest way to provide that.

F147H34D 8y ago
Thanks for the insightful comment. I’ve been considering changing careers in about 4 years. MS is computer forensics. When I retire from law enforcement (as a computer forensic examiner) I will be about 45. I can program lightly in Python and other languages — enough to automate my job. If I want to do software development is it plausible to teach myself in 4 years? Am I hirable at 45?
- manfredo 8y ago
  Really depends, getting into programming from bootcamps isn't super easy and can be a bit of a crapshoot. One of the biggest pluses is if you have authored projects that you can show publicly - ideally open source. Try putting together projects on your side time. Even relatively simple ones can be impressive. For example, I whipped up a program that used selenium and ChromeDriver to automate exploration of YouTube recommendations [1]. Things like that can make your application stand out. 1. This is what inspired me to build this project. Hopefully I can build up some data and present my finding on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19524645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19524645
- learc83 8y ago
  >If I want to do software development is it plausible to teach myself in 4 years? Am I hirable at 45? As always, it depends. Assuming retire means you’re going to get some kind of pension, you could definitely be in a nice position to take contract jobs and let the pension smooth out any income fluctuations. Also if you can start trying to pick up contract work on the side now, you’d be a very good position in 4 years. If you want to find a full time, entry level job, that’s doable as well assuming the economy is doing relatively ok in 4 years. You could also try to find a programming job where your existing experience would be relevant so you're not starting out at the bottom. Maybe a programming job with a company that makes forensic software or just a company that works with law enforcement in general. Domain expertise is the big differentiator once you have a few years of programming experience.
randomacct3847 8y ago
I think this fits my understanding as well, though I think you could say the same thing about a lot of things e.g. don’t hire an expensive personal trainer when you can just watch YouTube videos and learn to work out on your own. For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money.
- learc83 8y ago
  >For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. I definitely do as well. The problem I see is that the ROI just isn't worth it with the common 12 week bootcamps. It's not that you couldn't come up with a bootcamp program that was worth it, it's that I don't think 12 weeks is long enough. Look at skilled trade apprenticeships--they all take much longer. Even something like cosmetology school is a year long program. If you had a program that was a year long and was priced similarly to community college, I think that could be worth paying for. >They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money. The problem is that those things aren't remotely comparable. I think the problem is that bootcamps are what for-profit education ends up looking like. 12 weeks isn’t based on how long it takes someone to become proficient, it’s based on how long people are willing to go with no income.
  - randomacct3847 8y ago
    Right, but if 12 weeks was too short to get a job then how are people getting jobs...? You’re saying that the people who do get jobs would’ve gotten them had they gone through the program or not? Looks like Lambda school is 9 months now (I though it was 6 but perhaps they increased it). That is equivalent to a full academic year...whats your experience with Lambda school grads and are they objectively much better than one graduating from an in person one?
    - austenallred 8y ago
      Hour for hour 9 months of a Lambda School schedule is actually closer to two academic years.
metalgearsolid 8y ago
I can say that personally, a bootcamp worked for me as I needed some kind of environment where I had some kind of obligations, real or not. I needed some kind of structure to put it simply. That being said, my success only came after the fact where a genuine interest and passion allowed me to further develop my skills for many months after "graduating" And I totally agree with the advice to just skip the bootcamp and learn online for free. It's basically the same advice I give people who ask me about my experience. Therefore, I think the best solution would be to organize something within your community to engage with free resources together. Perhaps even pitch in small amounts of money to get a professional to review/mentor/help out on weekends or something like that.

F147H34D 8y ago

Thanks for the insightful comment. I’ve been considering changing careers in about 4 years. MS is computer forensics. When I retire from law enforcement (as a computer forensic examiner) I will be about 45. I can program lightly in Python and other languages — enough to automate my job. If I want to do software development is it plausible to teach myself in 4 years? Am I hirable at 45?

manfredo 8y ago
Really depends, getting into programming from bootcamps isn't super easy and can be a bit of a crapshoot. One of the biggest pluses is if you have authored projects that you can show publicly - ideally open source. Try putting together projects on your side time. Even relatively simple ones can be impressive. For example, I whipped up a program that used selenium and ChromeDriver to automate exploration of YouTube recommendations [1]. Things like that can make your application stand out. 1. This is what inspired me to build this project. Hopefully I can build up some data and present my finding on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19524645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19524645
learc83 8y ago
>If I want to do software development is it plausible to teach myself in 4 years? Am I hirable at 45? As always, it depends. Assuming retire means you’re going to get some kind of pension, you could definitely be in a nice position to take contract jobs and let the pension smooth out any income fluctuations. Also if you can start trying to pick up contract work on the side now, you’d be a very good position in 4 years. If you want to find a full time, entry level job, that’s doable as well assuming the economy is doing relatively ok in 4 years. You could also try to find a programming job where your existing experience would be relevant so you're not starting out at the bottom. Maybe a programming job with a company that makes forensic software or just a company that works with law enforcement in general. Domain expertise is the big differentiator once you have a few years of programming experience.

randomacct3847 8y ago

I think this fits my understanding as well, though I think you could say the same thing about a lot of things e.g. don’t hire an expensive personal trainer when you can just watch YouTube videos and learn to work out on your own. For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money.

learc83 8y ago
>For me, I see benefit from structured learning and accountability. I definitely do as well. The problem I see is that the ROI just isn't worth it with the common 12 week bootcamps. It's not that you couldn't come up with a bootcamp program that was worth it, it's that I don't think 12 weeks is long enough. Look at skilled trade apprenticeships--they all take much longer. Even something like cosmetology school is a year long program. If you had a program that was a year long and was priced similarly to community college, I think that could be worth paying for. >They are expensive, but going back to school for a 1 or 2 year CS masters is way more expensive than a bootcamp in both time and money. The problem is that those things aren't remotely comparable. I think the problem is that bootcamps are what for-profit education ends up looking like. 12 weeks isn’t based on how long it takes someone to become proficient, it’s based on how long people are willing to go with no income.
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  Right, but if 12 weeks was too short to get a job then how are people getting jobs...? You’re saying that the people who do get jobs would’ve gotten them had they gone through the program or not? Looks like Lambda school is 9 months now (I though it was 6 but perhaps they increased it). That is equivalent to a full academic year...whats your experience with Lambda school grads and are they objectively much better than one graduating from an in person one?
  - austenallred 8y ago
    Hour for hour 9 months of a Lambda School schedule is actually closer to two academic years.

metalgearsolid 8y ago

I can say that personally, a bootcamp worked for me as I needed some kind of environment where I had some kind of obligations, real or not. I needed some kind of structure to put it simply. That being said, my success only came after the fact where a genuine interest and passion allowed me to further develop my skills for many months after "graduating" And I totally agree with the advice to just skip the bootcamp and learn online for free. It's basically the same advice I give people who ask me about my experience. Therefore, I think the best solution would be to organize something within your community to engage with free resources together. Perhaps even pitch in small amounts of money to get a professional to review/mentor/help out on weekends or something like that.