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> If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by a traditional CS eduction. or a bootcamp that focuses on these par

> If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by a traditional CS eduction. or a bootcamp that focuses on these particular skills. Universities imagine they are for people pursuing higher knowledge and not a job, and now this can be true again. Time to divorce universities from the corporate sector, there are enough programs to build now that enough tech companies don't gatekeep this way. On the culture side, technical leaders who hire also don't care because there is stuff to build.

munchbunny 8y ago
Bootcamps will not get you to the same point of comfort with low level stuff because it requires a pretty substantial breadth of accumulated academic study plus hands on practice, and there aren't enough low level programming jobs that I'd ever recommend someone spend time on that in a bootcamp. If low level is really where you want to go, you can get comfortable with typical frontend and back end programming, and then as you become more comfortable, it's a short hop to GPU stuff, C/C++, and taking the academic stuff in MOOC's. As an example, I just spent several days last week chasing a bug in C# code all the way down into the native Windows stack inside optimized compiled C and C++ code. While I do not expect a boot camp grad to be able to do it, I think they're perfectly capable of picking it up with time. But to do what I was doing, you had to have spent substantial time working with C/C++ debugging and be comfortable staring at memory dumps. That's just not a good ROI on bootcamp time because most jobs are app development, not troubleshooting low level stacks. But since 4 year programs teach low level stuff, it gives those grades more career flexibility.
- caprese 8y ago
  sounds like an unfulfilled niche to me. existing 6 month boot camps "can't" do it since they are just recruiters that create the pipeline instead of making excuses about it, 4 year university still probably not the most optimal either.
  - munchbunny 8y ago
    I think MOOC's fill that niche. In some ways, 4-year university is actually the ideal place, because it allows you to to spend four years traversing a conceptual dependency graph in parallel without making it your life. Assuming you're not just partying it away, you're getting a bunch of other valuable skills, personal growth, network, etc. out of those 4 years. I think MOOC's are the cheaper option. Bootcamps, even at 6 months, have an issue that it's really not enough time to cover basic algorithms, basic systems programming, basic circuit design, linear algebra and graph theory, advanced algorithms, then finally specialized topics. It's just too much and too subtle to blitz through. But MOOC's don't have that limitation.
barry-cotter 8y ago
>> If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by a traditional CS eduction. > or a bootcamp that focuses on these particular skills. Do these exist yet? Low level C, Assembly, Rust, we’re going to finish Knuth’s Concrete Mathematics kind of boot camps?

munchbunny 8y ago

Bootcamps will not get you to the same point of comfort with low level stuff because it requires a pretty substantial breadth of accumulated academic study plus hands on practice, and there aren't enough low level programming jobs that I'd ever recommend someone spend time on that in a bootcamp. If low level is really where you want to go, you can get comfortable with typical frontend and back end programming, and then as you become more comfortable, it's a short hop to GPU stuff, C/C++, and taking the academic stuff in MOOC's. As an example, I just spent several days last week chasing a bug in C# code all the way down into the native Windows stack inside optimized compiled C and C++ code. While I do not expect a boot camp grad to be able to do it, I think they're perfectly capable of picking it up with time. But to do what I was doing, you had to have spent substantial time working with C/C++ debugging and be comfortable staring at memory dumps. That's just not a good ROI on bootcamp time because most jobs are app development, not troubleshooting low level stacks. But since 4 year programs teach low level stuff, it gives those grades more career flexibility.

caprese 8y ago
sounds like an unfulfilled niche to me. existing 6 month boot camps "can't" do it since they are just recruiters that create the pipeline instead of making excuses about it, 4 year university still probably not the most optimal either.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  I think MOOC's fill that niche. In some ways, 4-year university is actually the ideal place, because it allows you to to spend four years traversing a conceptual dependency graph in parallel without making it your life. Assuming you're not just partying it away, you're getting a bunch of other valuable skills, personal growth, network, etc. out of those 4 years. I think MOOC's are the cheaper option. Bootcamps, even at 6 months, have an issue that it's really not enough time to cover basic algorithms, basic systems programming, basic circuit design, linear algebra and graph theory, advanced algorithms, then finally specialized topics. It's just too much and too subtle to blitz through. But MOOC's don't have that limitation.

barry-cotter 8y ago

>> If you want to do hard algorithmic or low-level programming, you’re still better served by a traditional CS eduction. > or a bootcamp that focuses on these particular skills. Do these exist yet? Low level C, Assembly, Rust, we’re going to finish Knuth’s Concrete Mathematics kind of boot camps?