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I find there is a worrying lack of thorough quantitative analysis with these types of bans and attempts to internalize externalities. This law is a statement by

I find there is a worrying lack of thorough quantitative analysis with these types of bans and attempts to internalize externalities. This law is a statement by lawmakers predicated on the cost of single use plastic bags and even paper bags to be greater than the efficiencies they introduce to society at large. It seems to me that such a statement is extremely hard to quantify. Furthermore this may also be a regressive tax where poor people disproportionately benefit from the benefits provided by single use plastic bags and the rich pay more of the consequences. This is without even taking into account the unintended consequences of such laws. Another poster even mentioned the health hazards that could be introduced.

jmartrican 8y ago
I agree. Its hard to decide when to let the market and efficiencies deal with a problem or regulations. I don't have the answer but I always appreciate the discussion and appreciate someone making a decision and finding out what happens next.
ricardobeat 8y ago
The “efficiency” cost is being absorbed by other communities: https://www.riverkeeper.org/blogs/docket/plastic-pollution-data-sweep-2018/ https://www.riverkeeper.org/blogs/docket/plastic-pollution-d... Many European cities have done fine without single-use plastic bags for years. The cost of a reusable bag is still negligible and should have no impact on purchasing power. Finally, there is a ton of data on the impact of plastic pollution in local rivers, sea life and other ecosystems. What other data are you looking for?
- ilikehurdles 8y ago
  Do those studies take into account the effect on the climate of US libertarians collectively blowing out hot air when these bans go into effect?
- balfirevic 8y ago
  How do plastic bags end up in the river? Do people just throw these things on the ground or into the river? I wish anti-littering laws could effectively be enforced, but I realize it's tough to do.
  - llukas 8y ago
    Who cares how those bags end up there? To figure it out and then properly enforce you'd need spend resources that could be better used elsewhere.
    - kortilla 8y ago
      Are you serious? You don’t even care if the bags are actually coming from the the locations where the bags are being banned?
      - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
        To play devil's advocate a bit: If most of the plastic bags in NYC were coming from New Jersey, that wouldn't be a reason to allow them in New York. It would just emphasize that they should be restricted in as many jurisdictions as possible.
        balfirevic 8y ago
        I don't think that particular reasoning works - perhaps New Yorkers (hypothetically) behave very nicely and properly dispose of plastic bags, so there is no need for ban.
    - gubbrora 8y ago
      If we know how they end up there it will help understand how well solutions will work obviously. Are people flushing them down the toilet? Does the wind catch the bag before anyone can react? Do people throw them on the ground because their pockets are full and there is no trash bin for miles?
perfunctory 8y ago
> the efficiencies they introduce to society at large What are you talking about?
- doctorpangloss 8y ago
  The most dogged of all reductive points of view is that (1) all processes are Darwinian, and (2) market economic, so therefore (3) if people want plastic bags and get them for a long time, therefore it must be efficient. It never occurred to people that those premises could all be true, but it’s actually all about what you call efficient, or what the meaning of long time is, or basically any sufficiently arcane detail that would require like, actual knowledge or reading a book.
deevolution 8y ago
No issues in cambridge. They've had this ban for a few years now. I dont see riots in the street demanding free plastic bags.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  That's the fun part about this debate: there's data. It works. I was doubtful before my local area banned them, now most people love trading a slight inconvenience for a lot less litter. And then the next area to propose a ban has a similar debate, usually without considering the results of the previous experiment.
- amalcon 8y ago
  A lot of the smaller shops just ignore the ban, though. It's still helped quite a bit, but it hasn't been complete.
dahart 8y ago
Why are you sure there hasn’t been a thorough quantitative analysis? Since many laws require strong reasons, evidence of public support, periods for public comment, votes by politicians, etc., I’d probably assume it was at least somewhat vetted. Did that not happen in New York? I would agree that the efficiency benefit to society of single use plastic bags is probably difficult to measure, perhaps because the benefit compared to reusable bags is very small, and maybe even goes away completely after there’s a public behavior change and widespread expectation that free bags aren’t available? There are some known and large and already quantified downsides to single use plastic bags, plastic production is a health hazard for the workers and nearby communities, and consumes non-renewable resources both in production and transportation. Litter on the streets and in the oceans are causing problems. Plastic in landfills leaching into groundwater is an ongoing issue. All for the “benefit” of being able to carry something 100 feet once and then throw away? It seems so incredibly costly and wasteful in return for an immeasurable convenience... how much proof do we really need?
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
I usually have reusable canvas and plastic bags, I just don't have a strong incentive to remember to carry them with me. I suspect you'll find people will own a multitude of reusable bags, and given that their value will be driven down by necessity, the higher quality bags will end up becoming trivially affordable and accessible to everyone.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  You might ask yourself, "What's already happened at all of the places that have already banned single-use plastic bags?"
orhmeh09 8y ago
I think I may have misunderstood you, but just to clarify: By “Furthermore this may also be a regressive tax where poor people disproportionately benefit from the benefits provided by single use plastic bags and the rich pay more of the consequences,” are you saying it’s a regressive tax that is biased against the rich and therefore unfair to the rich?
- PrimalDual 8y ago
  I mean disposable plastic bags benefit the poor more than they hurt the rich. For example, perhaps the poor use those plastic bags as trash bags for other waste instead of buying proper trash bags. I know I often did.
  - wetpaws 8y ago
    You can use paper bags for the same
    - userbinator 8y ago
      Not for anything wet...
      - benj111 8y ago
        Paper cups....
  - benj111 8y ago
    From a European perspective, they can be regressive in the sense that poorer people tend to walk / bus to the shops, where carrying bulkier bags is a pain, whereas car owners can just stash them in the boot. From what I understand in New York, that dynamic may be reversed though.
    - bunderbunder 8y ago
      Carrying the reusable bags that are typically sold at grocery stores or given out at events would be a pain. I have some bags that are made of a very thin nylon fabric that fold up into a built-in pocket. They take up very little space. I just keep one or two in my regular "going out of the house" bag, so they're always handy. They're sturdy enough that filling both of them with groceries would be more bulk than I actually want to carry home from the bus, so, AFAIC, the problem is handled. I guess losing plastic grocery bags as garbage bags might be minorly annoying if they were the only source of plastic waste in my life, but, realistically, there are so very many other single-use plastic bags that aren't covered by any of these bans: Chip bags, bread bags, produce bags, etc. My "bin liners for very small bins" needs are still well covered. Long story short, I have a hard time believing this will actually hurt less wealthy people in urban areas all that much. It's going to be much more annoying to people who drive to the grocery store and now have to remember to keep enough bags to contain $250 worth of groceries at one time in their car.
ilikehurdles 8y ago
For as long as I can remember, German grocery stores have charged you for any bag that isn’t your own. To be fair, their reactionary right wing nutjobs aren’t as normalized in their media as ours are in the US.
- dang 8y ago
  Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines? You've been posting political flamebait, which is against the rules, as well as name-calling, in the sense we use the term here. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN, we'd be grateful.
gerbilly 8y ago
> I find there is a worrying lack of thorough quantitative analysis with these types of bans Maybe monetary cost isn't the most important thing to factor in. How about an ecological analysis?

jmartrican 8y ago

I agree. Its hard to decide when to let the market and efficiencies deal with a problem or regulations. I don't have the answer but I always appreciate the discussion and appreciate someone making a decision and finding out what happens next.

ricardobeat 8y ago

The “efficiency” cost is being absorbed by other communities: https://www.riverkeeper.org/blogs/docket/plastic-pollution-data-sweep-2018/ https://www.riverkeeper.org/blogs/docket/plastic-pollution-d... Many European cities have done fine without single-use plastic bags for years. The cost of a reusable bag is still negligible and should have no impact on purchasing power. Finally, there is a ton of data on the impact of plastic pollution in local rivers, sea life and other ecosystems. What other data are you looking for?

ilikehurdles 8y ago
Do those studies take into account the effect on the climate of US libertarians collectively blowing out hot air when these bans go into effect?
balfirevic 8y ago
How do plastic bags end up in the river? Do people just throw these things on the ground or into the river? I wish anti-littering laws could effectively be enforced, but I realize it's tough to do.
- llukas 8y ago
  Who cares how those bags end up there? To figure it out and then properly enforce you'd need spend resources that could be better used elsewhere.
  - kortilla 8y ago
    Are you serious? You don’t even care if the bags are actually coming from the the locations where the bags are being banned?
    - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
      To play devil's advocate a bit: If most of the plastic bags in NYC were coming from New Jersey, that wouldn't be a reason to allow them in New York. It would just emphasize that they should be restricted in as many jurisdictions as possible.
      - balfirevic 8y ago
        I don't think that particular reasoning works - perhaps New Yorkers (hypothetically) behave very nicely and properly dispose of plastic bags, so there is no need for ban.
  - gubbrora 8y ago
    If we know how they end up there it will help understand how well solutions will work obviously. Are people flushing them down the toilet? Does the wind catch the bag before anyone can react? Do people throw them on the ground because their pockets are full and there is no trash bin for miles?

perfunctory 8y ago

> the efficiencies they introduce to society at large What are you talking about?

doctorpangloss 8y ago
The most dogged of all reductive points of view is that (1) all processes are Darwinian, and (2) market economic, so therefore (3) if people want plastic bags and get them for a long time, therefore it must be efficient. It never occurred to people that those premises could all be true, but it’s actually all about what you call efficient, or what the meaning of long time is, or basically any sufficiently arcane detail that would require like, actual knowledge or reading a book.

deevolution 8y ago

No issues in cambridge. They've had this ban for a few years now. I dont see riots in the street demanding free plastic bags.

greglindahl 8y ago
That's the fun part about this debate: there's data. It works. I was doubtful before my local area banned them, now most people love trading a slight inconvenience for a lot less litter. And then the next area to propose a ban has a similar debate, usually without considering the results of the previous experiment.
amalcon 8y ago
A lot of the smaller shops just ignore the ban, though. It's still helped quite a bit, but it hasn't been complete.

dahart 8y ago

Why are you sure there hasn’t been a thorough quantitative analysis? Since many laws require strong reasons, evidence of public support, periods for public comment, votes by politicians, etc., I’d probably assume it was at least somewhat vetted. Did that not happen in New York? I would agree that the efficiency benefit to society of single use plastic bags is probably difficult to measure, perhaps because the benefit compared to reusable bags is very small, and maybe even goes away completely after there’s a public behavior change and widespread expectation that free bags aren’t available? There are some known and large and already quantified downsides to single use plastic bags, plastic production is a health hazard for the workers and nearby communities, and consumes non-renewable resources both in production and transportation. Litter on the streets and in the oceans are causing problems. Plastic in landfills leaching into groundwater is an ongoing issue. All for the “benefit” of being able to carry something 100 feet once and then throw away? It seems so incredibly costly and wasteful in return for an immeasurable convenience... how much proof do we really need?

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

I usually have reusable canvas and plastic bags, I just don't have a strong incentive to remember to carry them with me. I suspect you'll find people will own a multitude of reusable bags, and given that their value will be driven down by necessity, the higher quality bags will end up becoming trivially affordable and accessible to everyone.

greglindahl 8y ago
You might ask yourself, "What's already happened at all of the places that have already banned single-use plastic bags?"

orhmeh09 8y ago

I think I may have misunderstood you, but just to clarify: By “Furthermore this may also be a regressive tax where poor people disproportionately benefit from the benefits provided by single use plastic bags and the rich pay more of the consequences,” are you saying it’s a regressive tax that is biased against the rich and therefore unfair to the rich?

PrimalDual 8y ago
I mean disposable plastic bags benefit the poor more than they hurt the rich. For example, perhaps the poor use those plastic bags as trash bags for other waste instead of buying proper trash bags. I know I often did.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  You can use paper bags for the same
  - userbinator 8y ago
    Not for anything wet...
    - benj111 8y ago
      Paper cups....
- benj111 8y ago
  From a European perspective, they can be regressive in the sense that poorer people tend to walk / bus to the shops, where carrying bulkier bags is a pain, whereas car owners can just stash them in the boot. From what I understand in New York, that dynamic may be reversed though.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    Carrying the reusable bags that are typically sold at grocery stores or given out at events would be a pain. I have some bags that are made of a very thin nylon fabric that fold up into a built-in pocket. They take up very little space. I just keep one or two in my regular "going out of the house" bag, so they're always handy. They're sturdy enough that filling both of them with groceries would be more bulk than I actually want to carry home from the bus, so, AFAIC, the problem is handled. I guess losing plastic grocery bags as garbage bags might be minorly annoying if they were the only source of plastic waste in my life, but, realistically, there are so very many other single-use plastic bags that aren't covered by any of these bans: Chip bags, bread bags, produce bags, etc. My "bin liners for very small bins" needs are still well covered. Long story short, I have a hard time believing this will actually hurt less wealthy people in urban areas all that much. It's going to be much more annoying to people who drive to the grocery store and now have to remember to keep enough bags to contain $250 worth of groceries at one time in their car.

ilikehurdles 8y ago

For as long as I can remember, German grocery stores have charged you for any bag that isn’t your own. To be fair, their reactionary right wing nutjobs aren’t as normalized in their media as ours are in the US.

dang 8y ago
Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines? You've been posting political flamebait, which is against the rules, as well as name-calling, in the sense we use the term here. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting to HN, we'd be grateful.

gerbilly 8y ago

> I find there is a worrying lack of thorough quantitative analysis with these types of bans Maybe monetary cost isn't the most important thing to factor in. How about an ecological analysis?