6 ms·

This is a follow-up to Gmail putting PayPal classifying PayPal security notification emails as Spam (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19099887 https://news.

by nh2 8y ago

This is a follow-up to Gmail putting PayPal classifying PayPal security notification emails as Spam (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19099887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19099887), and Google stating that it's a problem with Gmail and that they've put in a temporary fix specific for PayPal. Just now, 2 months later, the same issue happened with a security login email from Stripe.

laurentl 8y ago
Honestly, the first time I saw a Paypal email (something along the line of “check out your account activity”) I thought for sure that it was a phishing attempt. Not one link in their emails point to PayPal, they all point to stg like paypal-communications.com. You know, the type of domain name a phisher would come up with. Even the link talking about security doesn’t point to the PayPal website! That, and asking me to check my recent account activity when I know I haven’t used PayPal (and PayPal should also know that), is basically PayPal training their customers to fall for scams.
- nautical 8y ago
  One of the reasons I think spammers have been so successful has to do with companies only. Because companies send a LOT of spam emails / promotions etc that they have to come up with alternate domains to send emails. On customer side its very difficult to know the truth.
- scrollaway 8y ago
  Paypal has ridiculously low standards for their official emails. https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943346017608585216 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943346017608585216 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943513254655156224 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943513254655156224
- anoncake 8y ago
  Wow. Ive been throwing away those messages for months.
izacus 8y ago
That feels like people are marking PayPal/Stripe emails as spam to make them go away in their mailboxes. At least I've seen a lot of less tech savvy people use "Mark as spam" button as "Make this go away" button and train the model into throwing these kind of emails away.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago
  Paypal is sending regular "HEY YOU HAVE MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNT" e-mails. Apparently, there are legal requirements to send them, so you can't opt opt. I'm not surprised if people send the stuff to spam, because it looks exactly like the typical "hey pay attention to me" re-engagement notification spam. And I don't see why you'd need to be less tech savvy to use "mark as spam" on automated e-mails sent to you that you didn't ask for and don't want to receive.
- toper-centage 8y ago
  I'm pretty tech savvy, but if any company sends me umwanted emails that don't have an unsubscribe link at the bottom which I can access without logging in, I mark it as spam, because that's what it is. If enough people do this, Gmail learns and applies the filter accordingly soon enough.
goatsi 8y ago
>Just now, 2 months later, the same issue happened with a security login email from Stripe. It just happened for the same user, but it seems to be a long standing issue. In the old thread another user was complaining about Stripe emails getting the same treatment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100629
lvs 8y ago
Gmail has become ridiculously aggressive at spam filtering, and not in a helpful way at all. As I posted here some time ago, they're spam filtering government agency communications sending authentic mail from .gov -- which is really frustrating. It's out of control.
- Silhouette 8y ago
  It's not just Google, sadly. We have a noticeable level of problems with big name mail services and major ISPs silently dropping messages, including messages we are legally required to send. This remains the case even though we're sending through reputable mail servers, SPF is set up, etc. The likes of Google and Microsoft have applied embrace-extend-extinguish to possibly the most important communications medium of modern terms, successfully making it less reliable than it has ever been for sending legitimate, actually important stuff. They really should be strongly and publicly criticised for that. False positives in spam detection are, for the most part, more damaging than false negatives.
woodrow 8y ago
Can you please post sanitized headers with your gist, or at least check them out on your own? Instructions here: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/29436?hl=en https://support.google.com/mail/answer/29436?hl=en The "via" next to the sender address in your screenshots (https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en) suggests that there might be a DMARC problem (on their side or yours) that could be causing this filtering.
- nh2 8y ago
  Please see the last HN thread I linked for a discussion of headers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100332 As mentioned there, the "via" most likely comes from the fact that the recipient address is a Google Groups address that multiple people can receive. Also, as mentioned in the Github issue, Google's G Suite security staff has checked the headers (in the Paypal case) and come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong with them, and that it's a Gmail issue (and that the fact that the recipient is a Groups address should make no difference for spam filtering).
  - nh2 8y ago
    Nevertheless, here are the email headers, in case anybody can spot something that Google didn't: https://github.com/nh2/gmail-spamfilters-paypal-security-messages/blob/master/stripe-headers.txt https://github.com/nh2/gmail-spamfilters-paypal-security-mes...
shereadsthenews 8y ago
They provide the headers of the classified message and it seems to have passed through some kind of group expansion; the message provided did not come _directly_ from Stripe. Initially it was received from from a62-28.smtp-out.us-west-2.amazonses.com but then it went through a listserv, through another SMTP hop via gappssmtp.com, then delivered to the spam folder of the recipient.... There could be a million reasons why this happened but it's equally correct to say that "Gmail spam-filters Google Groups" as it is to say "Gmail spam-filters Stripe" based on this evidence.

by nh2 8y ago

laurentl 8y ago

Honestly, the first time I saw a Paypal email (something along the line of “check out your account activity”) I thought for sure that it was a phishing attempt. Not one link in their emails point to PayPal, they all point to stg like paypal-communications.com. You know, the type of domain name a phisher would come up with. Even the link talking about security doesn’t point to the PayPal website! That, and asking me to check my recent account activity when I know I haven’t used PayPal (and PayPal should also know that), is basically PayPal training their customers to fall for scams.

nautical 8y ago
One of the reasons I think spammers have been so successful has to do with companies only. Because companies send a LOT of spam emails / promotions etc that they have to come up with alternate domains to send emails. On customer side its very difficult to know the truth.
scrollaway 8y ago
Paypal has ridiculously low standards for their official emails. https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943346017608585216 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943346017608585216 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943513254655156224 https://twitter.com/Adys/status/943513254655156224
anoncake 8y ago
Wow. Ive been throwing away those messages for months.

izacus 8y ago

That feels like people are marking PayPal/Stripe emails as spam to make them go away in their mailboxes. At least I've seen a lot of less tech savvy people use "Mark as spam" button as "Make this go away" button and train the model into throwing these kind of emails away.

tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago
Paypal is sending regular "HEY YOU HAVE MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNT" e-mails. Apparently, there are legal requirements to send them, so you can't opt opt. I'm not surprised if people send the stuff to spam, because it looks exactly like the typical "hey pay attention to me" re-engagement notification spam. And I don't see why you'd need to be less tech savvy to use "mark as spam" on automated e-mails sent to you that you didn't ask for and don't want to receive.
toper-centage 8y ago
I'm pretty tech savvy, but if any company sends me umwanted emails that don't have an unsubscribe link at the bottom which I can access without logging in, I mark it as spam, because that's what it is. If enough people do this, Gmail learns and applies the filter accordingly soon enough.

goatsi 8y ago

>Just now, 2 months later, the same issue happened with a security login email from Stripe. It just happened for the same user, but it seems to be a long standing issue. In the old thread another user was complaining about Stripe emails getting the same treatment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100629

lvs 8y ago

Gmail has become ridiculously aggressive at spam filtering, and not in a helpful way at all. As I posted here some time ago, they're spam filtering government agency communications sending authentic mail from .gov -- which is really frustrating. It's out of control.

Silhouette 8y ago
It's not just Google, sadly. We have a noticeable level of problems with big name mail services and major ISPs silently dropping messages, including messages we are legally required to send. This remains the case even though we're sending through reputable mail servers, SPF is set up, etc. The likes of Google and Microsoft have applied embrace-extend-extinguish to possibly the most important communications medium of modern terms, successfully making it less reliable than it has ever been for sending legitimate, actually important stuff. They really should be strongly and publicly criticised for that. False positives in spam detection are, for the most part, more damaging than false negatives.

woodrow 8y ago

Can you please post sanitized headers with your gist, or at least check them out on your own? Instructions here: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/29436?hl=en https://support.google.com/mail/answer/29436?hl=en The "via" next to the sender address in your screenshots (https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en) suggests that there might be a DMARC problem (on their side or yours) that could be causing this filtering.

nh2 8y ago
Please see the last HN thread I linked for a discussion of headers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19100332 As mentioned there, the "via" most likely comes from the fact that the recipient address is a Google Groups address that multiple people can receive. Also, as mentioned in the Github issue, Google's G Suite security staff has checked the headers (in the Paypal case) and come to the conclusion that nothing is wrong with them, and that it's a Gmail issue (and that the fact that the recipient is a Groups address should make no difference for spam filtering).
- nh2 8y ago
  Nevertheless, here are the email headers, in case anybody can spot something that Google didn't: https://github.com/nh2/gmail-spamfilters-paypal-security-messages/blob/master/stripe-headers.txt https://github.com/nh2/gmail-spamfilters-paypal-security-mes...

shereadsthenews 8y ago

They provide the headers of the classified message and it seems to have passed through some kind of group expansion; the message provided did not come _directly_ from Stripe. Initially it was received from from a62-28.smtp-out.us-west-2.amazonses.com but then it went through a listserv, through another SMTP hop via gappssmtp.com, then delivered to the spam folder of the recipient.... There could be a million reasons why this happened but it's equally correct to say that "Gmail spam-filters Google Groups" as it is to say "Gmail spam-filters Stripe" based on this evidence.