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I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Of course strikes are disruptive to the general public; that’s one of the reason people strike. Ordinary ci

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Of course strikes are disruptive to the general public; that’s one of the reason people strike. Ordinary citizens who have their lives disrupted will turn to their elected officials to end the disruption. There will always be people who turn unsympathetic when workers withhold their labor. The long-term benefit is worth it.

manfredo 8y ago
It causes more parents to say "screw it" and put their kids in private schools. And now those parents have a lot less reason to support public school funding.
- door5 8y ago
  People rich enough to put their kids in private school are a tiny minority. It doesn't matter what they think. This is a working class movement for working class people.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    No, they aren't. The average private school tuition is about $10k a year [1]. Ones affiliated with religious institutions like Catholic schools often offer subsidized tuition for lower income people. It's within reach for a sizable portion of the middle class. In many states, private school tuition is tax deductible. Granted, cheaper private schools are more common in the less affluent areas (namely, the South) where it's essentially taken for granted that the moderately well off and above send their kids to private schools. If you're from a wealthy coastal city with public schools good enough that the wealthy are comfortable sending their kids there, then it's understandable why some may associate private schools as being more exclusive to the upper class. 1. https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-school-cost-by-state https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-sc...
    - sundaeofshock 8y ago
      Median household income in the US is $65k. $10k/year/ child is not affordable for most households. You also mention religious schools. Why should a person have to indoctrinated in a religion to receive a good education?
      - manfredo 8y ago
        > Median household income in the US is $65k. $10k/year/ child is not affordable for most households. Er, no? Assuming it's tax deductible most families can probably make some lifestyle changes to free up $10k. Sure it might inhibit other goals, like building up saving or consumer spending. But it's a sacrifice that many people can make if they have a strong incentive to do so (like if the local public school is crap). And this is ignoring any sort of subsidy or assistance. > You also mention religious schools. Why should a person have to indoctrinated in a religion to receive a good education? I mentioned them in context cheaper private school education. Not to mention, the fact that you immediately leapt from "religious school" to "indoctrination" indicates that you seem to be approaching this with your conclusions decided a priori and are looking to justify them rather than participate in good faith.
        sundaeofshock 8y ago
        > lifestyle changes to free up $10k. Seriously? Do you have a family? Raising kids is really expensive, even without sending them off to public school. After rent, food, clothing, medical care, and transportation, there is not much left. As for your comments about religious school, I am basing my comments on real the real world experience of having gone to a religious school for 7-years. All of these schools require some type of education about the school’s founding religion. At a minimum, we are talking about a regular class. Many schools require their students to adhere to the standards of the religion during the course of the school day. Please explain to me how this is not indoctrination?
        manfredo 8y ago
        If an extra $10k out of an overall family income of $65k is impossible then I'd say that this family isn't managing money well. Were they not putting anything into savings before? Did they have no savings? Again, it'd be a significant sacrifice to afford private school - I've said so since the beginning - but it is possible for a lot more than just "a tiny minority" (your original words). > All of these schools require some type of education about the school’s founding religion. At a minimum, we are talking about a regular class. Many schools require their students to adhere to the standards of the religion during the course of the school day. And from this, you jump to "indoctrination". I and other family members have been to religious schools as well. One of my sister's closest friends was Jewish, and went to Catholic without any type of issue. And both my sister and I are about as atheistic as you can get. If merely teaching a class about the founding religion counts as indoctrination then this is a very, very permissive definition of indoctrination you're using.
  - pnw_hazor 8y ago
    About 22-23% of school age children in Seattle, WA go to private schools.
    - door5 8y ago
      Are you validating my point? Less than 1/4th of all children in one of the wealthiest metropolitan areas in the country.
      - manfredo 8y ago
        10% of students nation-wide attend private K-12 schools [1]. This is not "a tiny minority". https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55
        door5 8y ago
        This is pedantic. 10% is proportionally a very small number. I'm far more invested in the interests and priorities of 90% of people than of 10% of people.
        pnw_hazor 8y ago
        In Seattle about half of school age white kids go to private schools. Half of the largest demographic. Also, I don't believe that you are more invested in the 90% over the 10% unless the 10% is a group you disfavor -- such as parents who refuse to condemn their children to bad public schools if they can help it.
        door5 8y ago
        I condemn the rich who want to isolate their kids instead of working on a public school system accessible to all, yes. It's oddly transparent to limit your stats to white people.
ferongr 8y ago
As an ordinary citizen affected by, I support privatization where possible and at-will employment regimes for public servants where not. Public servants are privileged and should not have the right to strike.
- sfkdjf9j3j 8y ago
  What do you mean specifically by "should not have the right to strike"? As in, they should have their right to free association limited? They should be forced to work under penalty of jail time?
- RestlessMind 8y ago
  So if public servants are forbidden from striking and their employer (govt) starts abusing them, what would be their recourse? Voting might be insufficient if size of the workforce is too small to matter. In general, strike is a tool labor has against capital. Just because capital happens to be provided by taxpayers, how does that warrant a special case handling?
  - ferongr 8y ago
    They can always quit. But nobody quits from guaranteed for-life employment with generous pensions, lots of paid leave and limited workload.
    - snazz 8y ago
      Public school teachers don’t have any of those benefits, at least in the US. Their pay and pension are anything but generous, they have little paid leave (where I live, maternity or paternity leave uses up paid sick days too), and they work long hours, with the expectation that they are available to answer emails practically every day. This is pretty much why there are very few public school computer science teachers who do a decent job, since the ones who can legitimately write code can get a much better job at a private company.
      - cascom 8y ago

manfredo 8y ago

It causes more parents to say "screw it" and put their kids in private schools. And now those parents have a lot less reason to support public school funding.

door5 8y ago
People rich enough to put their kids in private school are a tiny minority. It doesn't matter what they think. This is a working class movement for working class people.
- manfredo 8y ago
  No, they aren't. The average private school tuition is about $10k a year [1]. Ones affiliated with religious institutions like Catholic schools often offer subsidized tuition for lower income people. It's within reach for a sizable portion of the middle class. In many states, private school tuition is tax deductible. Granted, cheaper private schools are more common in the less affluent areas (namely, the South) where it's essentially taken for granted that the moderately well off and above send their kids to private schools. If you're from a wealthy coastal city with public schools good enough that the wealthy are comfortable sending their kids there, then it's understandable why some may associate private schools as being more exclusive to the upper class. 1. https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-school-cost-by-state https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-sc...
  - sundaeofshock 8y ago
    Median household income in the US is $65k. $10k/year/ child is not affordable for most households. You also mention religious schools. Why should a person have to indoctrinated in a religion to receive a good education?
    - manfredo 8y ago
      > Median household income in the US is $65k. $10k/year/ child is not affordable for most households. Er, no? Assuming it's tax deductible most families can probably make some lifestyle changes to free up $10k. Sure it might inhibit other goals, like building up saving or consumer spending. But it's a sacrifice that many people can make if they have a strong incentive to do so (like if the local public school is crap). And this is ignoring any sort of subsidy or assistance. > You also mention religious schools. Why should a person have to indoctrinated in a religion to receive a good education? I mentioned them in context cheaper private school education. Not to mention, the fact that you immediately leapt from "religious school" to "indoctrination" indicates that you seem to be approaching this with your conclusions decided a priori and are looking to justify them rather than participate in good faith.
      - sundaeofshock 8y ago
        > lifestyle changes to free up $10k. Seriously? Do you have a family? Raising kids is really expensive, even without sending them off to public school. After rent, food, clothing, medical care, and transportation, there is not much left. As for your comments about religious school, I am basing my comments on real the real world experience of having gone to a religious school for 7-years. All of these schools require some type of education about the school’s founding religion. At a minimum, we are talking about a regular class. Many schools require their students to adhere to the standards of the religion during the course of the school day. Please explain to me how this is not indoctrination?
        manfredo 8y ago
        If an extra $10k out of an overall family income of $65k is impossible then I'd say that this family isn't managing money well. Were they not putting anything into savings before? Did they have no savings? Again, it'd be a significant sacrifice to afford private school - I've said so since the beginning - but it is possible for a lot more than just "a tiny minority" (your original words). > All of these schools require some type of education about the school’s founding religion. At a minimum, we are talking about a regular class. Many schools require their students to adhere to the standards of the religion during the course of the school day. And from this, you jump to "indoctrination". I and other family members have been to religious schools as well. One of my sister's closest friends was Jewish, and went to Catholic without any type of issue. And both my sister and I are about as atheistic as you can get. If merely teaching a class about the founding religion counts as indoctrination then this is a very, very permissive definition of indoctrination you're using.
- pnw_hazor 8y ago
  About 22-23% of school age children in Seattle, WA go to private schools.
  - door5 8y ago
    Are you validating my point? Less than 1/4th of all children in one of the wealthiest metropolitan areas in the country.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      10% of students nation-wide attend private K-12 schools [1]. This is not "a tiny minority". https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55
      - door5 8y ago
        This is pedantic. 10% is proportionally a very small number. I'm far more invested in the interests and priorities of 90% of people than of 10% of people.
        pnw_hazor 8y ago
        In Seattle about half of school age white kids go to private schools. Half of the largest demographic. Also, I don't believe that you are more invested in the 90% over the 10% unless the 10% is a group you disfavor -- such as parents who refuse to condemn their children to bad public schools if they can help it.
        door5 8y ago
        I condemn the rich who want to isolate their kids instead of working on a public school system accessible to all, yes. It's oddly transparent to limit your stats to white people.

ferongr 8y ago

As an ordinary citizen affected by, I support privatization where possible and at-will employment regimes for public servants where not. Public servants are privileged and should not have the right to strike.

sfkdjf9j3j 8y ago
What do you mean specifically by "should not have the right to strike"? As in, they should have their right to free association limited? They should be forced to work under penalty of jail time?
RestlessMind 8y ago
So if public servants are forbidden from striking and their employer (govt) starts abusing them, what would be their recourse? Voting might be insufficient if size of the workforce is too small to matter. In general, strike is a tool labor has against capital. Just because capital happens to be provided by taxpayers, how does that warrant a special case handling?
- ferongr 8y ago
  They can always quit. But nobody quits from guaranteed for-life employment with generous pensions, lots of paid leave and limited workload.
  - snazz 8y ago
    Public school teachers don’t have any of those benefits, at least in the US. Their pay and pension are anything but generous, they have little paid leave (where I live, maternity or paternity leave uses up paid sick days too), and they work long hours, with the expectation that they are available to answer emails practically every day. This is pretty much why there are very few public school computer science teachers who do a decent job, since the ones who can legitimately write code can get a much better job at a private company.
    - cascom 8y ago