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I generally support teacher labor movements. However, I think it's important to consider the effects that even the smallest disruption. For example, last year i

I generally support teacher labor movements. However, I think it's important to consider the effects that even the smallest disruption. For example, last year in NC the teacher's groups organized a "Rally for Respect." What they did to bypass strike laws was they encouraged every teacher in the state to request unpaid personal day, which is normally rubberstamped by the principal as you only have a couple. When half the school wants leave, that would be when you stop signing them. But instead, to avoid that conflict, nearly all major districts cancelled school entirely, treating everyone taking leave as a foregone conclusion. So, one extra teacher workday, barely even worth noting, right? Well, it just so happens that the day selected was the day of the AP Lang exam that year. By the time they saw fit to announce the non-strike, all of the exams had already been ordered and students and teachers had been planning for the normal date. Thanks to the non-strike, the state had to pay $45/exam to get late exams, and it could have caused some students to miss the exam if they had to take a conflicting exam late for a legitimate reason. Oddly enough, College Board wouldn't have charged if it were a real strike.

door5 8y ago
The whole point of strikes is that they are disruptive.
- morpheuskafka 8y ago
  But when government workers strike, they don't disrupt the legislatures that set their pay, they disrupt the everyday citizens who might have even been sympathetic to their cause.
  - door5 8y ago
    Yes they do -- These strikes have been incredibly effective. If ordinary citizens are not sympathetic to the teachers but sympathetic to the legislators, they have a distorted view of the situation, probably from right-wing, anti-union media.
  - sundaeofshock 8y ago
    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Of course strikes are disruptive to the general public; that’s one of the reason people strike. Ordinary citizens who have their lives disrupted will turn to their elected officials to end the disruption. There will always be people who turn unsympathetic when workers withhold their labor. The long-term benefit is worth it.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      It causes more parents to say "screw it" and put their kids in private schools. And now those parents have a lot less reason to support public school funding.
      - door5 8y ago
        People rich enough to put their kids in private school are a tiny minority. It doesn't matter what they think. This is a working class movement for working class people.
        manfredo 8y ago
        No, they aren't. The average private school tuition is about $10k a year [1]. Ones affiliated with religious institutions like Catholic schools often offer subsidized tuition for lower income people. It's within reach for a sizable portion of the middle class. In many states, private school tuition is tax deductible. Granted, cheaper private schools are more common in the less affluent areas (namely, the South) where it's essentially taken for granted that the moderately well off and above send their kids to private schools. If you're from a wealthy coastal city with public schools good enough that the wealthy are comfortable sending their kids there, then it's understandable why some may associate private schools as being more exclusive to the upper class. 1. https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-school-cost-by-state https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-sc...
        sundaeofshock 8y ago
        Median household income in the US is $65k. $10k/year/ child is not affordable for most households. You also mention religious schools. Why should a person have to indoctrinated in a religion to receive a good education?
  - mikeash 8y ago
    When corporate workers strike, they don’t disrupt the board members and major shareholders that set their pay, they disrupt the everyday customer who might have even been sympathetic to their cause.
    - Zach_the_Lizard 8y ago
      They do tend to disrupt profits, which in turn does disrupt the board. Since board members tend to be large shareholders or representatives of large shareholders, they would personally feel the effects of their net worth decreasing.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        Strikes by government workers disrupt taxes and affect elections. What’s the difference, really?
    - pnw_hazor 8y ago
      Private unions are fine. Government unions are problematic because the interests of taxpayers and the government officials that negotiate with the unions are not in alignment. Government office holders benefit greatly if they take care of the government unions in terms of campaign donations, endorsements, rallies, and so on. Taxpayers not so much. Why else do government union employees get outsized retirement benefits that have caused disabling debts to local governments? That is what happens when the taxpayers' negotiator personally benefits from keeping the government unions happy happy.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        I don’t see that the union is a particularly important part of what you describe. The same things could happen without a union. The misaligned incentives are the same either way.
duxup 8y ago
Yeah the few things they have gotten here and there have been pretty unimpressive.

door5 8y ago

The whole point of strikes is that they are disruptive.

morpheuskafka 8y ago
But when government workers strike, they don't disrupt the legislatures that set their pay, they disrupt the everyday citizens who might have even been sympathetic to their cause.
- door5 8y ago
  Yes they do -- These strikes have been incredibly effective. If ordinary citizens are not sympathetic to the teachers but sympathetic to the legislators, they have a distorted view of the situation, probably from right-wing, anti-union media.
- sundaeofshock 8y ago
  I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Of course strikes are disruptive to the general public; that’s one of the reason people strike. Ordinary citizens who have their lives disrupted will turn to their elected officials to end the disruption. There will always be people who turn unsympathetic when workers withhold their labor. The long-term benefit is worth it.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    It causes more parents to say "screw it" and put their kids in private schools. And now those parents have a lot less reason to support public school funding.
    - door5 8y ago
      People rich enough to put their kids in private school are a tiny minority. It doesn't matter what they think. This is a working class movement for working class people.
      - manfredo 8y ago
        No, they aren't. The average private school tuition is about $10k a year [1]. Ones affiliated with religious institutions like Catholic schools often offer subsidized tuition for lower income people. It's within reach for a sizable portion of the middle class. In many states, private school tuition is tax deductible. Granted, cheaper private schools are more common in the less affluent areas (namely, the South) where it's essentially taken for granted that the moderately well off and above send their kids to private schools. If you're from a wealthy coastal city with public schools good enough that the wealthy are comfortable sending their kids there, then it's understandable why some may associate private schools as being more exclusive to the upper class. 1. https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-school-cost-by-state https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/private-sc...
        sundaeofshock 8y ago
        Median household income in the US is $65k. $10k/year/ child is not affordable for most households. You also mention religious schools. Why should a person have to indoctrinated in a religion to receive a good education?
- mikeash 8y ago
  When corporate workers strike, they don’t disrupt the board members and major shareholders that set their pay, they disrupt the everyday customer who might have even been sympathetic to their cause.
  - Zach_the_Lizard 8y ago
    They do tend to disrupt profits, which in turn does disrupt the board. Since board members tend to be large shareholders or representatives of large shareholders, they would personally feel the effects of their net worth decreasing.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Strikes by government workers disrupt taxes and affect elections. What’s the difference, really?
  - pnw_hazor 8y ago
    Private unions are fine. Government unions are problematic because the interests of taxpayers and the government officials that negotiate with the unions are not in alignment. Government office holders benefit greatly if they take care of the government unions in terms of campaign donations, endorsements, rallies, and so on. Taxpayers not so much. Why else do government union employees get outsized retirement benefits that have caused disabling debts to local governments? That is what happens when the taxpayers' negotiator personally benefits from keeping the government unions happy happy.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I don’t see that the union is a particularly important part of what you describe. The same things could happen without a union. The misaligned incentives are the same either way.

duxup 8y ago

Yeah the few things they have gotten here and there have been pretty unimpressive.