12 ms·

Taiwan to block Tencent and Baidu streaming sites on security risk

171 points by ilamont 8y ago

jorblumesea 8y ago
Makes sense, China uses investments and media to alter perception of its policies abroad. The US and other Western nations block Chinese investment into infrastructure and tech, why not media as well?
chrischen 8y ago
If you are blocking rather relying on a strong base of educated voters, then are you any different from China, or have you essentially lost and have adopted your enemy’s ideals?
- ardy42 8y ago
  > If you are blocking rather relying on a strong base of educated voters, then are you any different from China, or have you essentially lost and have adopted your enemy’s ideals? No. Strong bases of educated voters don't emerge fully-formed from the Earth or something. It takes time to develop them and in that time they're vulnerable.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted. It's true, but the path to develop is littered with corruption, inefficiency, and general learn-from-mistakes policies.
dleslie 8y ago
Tencent is making large moves into youth-targeting western media. They are also the world's largest gaming company; League of Legends, PUBG, et cetera are Tencent properties. For instance, they own something like 40% of Epic Games, who is currently throwing large envelopes of cash around to secure a strong position in video game distribution. If there is cause to be concerned about China applying soft power to sway western opinions, then there is cause to be concerned about Tencent.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  I'm increasingly concerned about this and so are others. I have never talked about my brother about this, but they had banned TikTok for their daughter because it was Chinese owned.
- sodosopa 8y ago
  related: > Reddit confirms $300M Series D led by China’s Tencent at $3B value https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/11/reddit-300-million/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/11/reddit-300-million/
- HenryBemis 8y ago
  Epic runs Fortnite, that allegedly made $3bn profit in 2018 [1]. That is not a small feat, plus they have a foothold in millions of machines. And from the dialogue we had in HN a few days ago on how Fortnite was accessing/scanning steam friends it seems that they are pretty greedy to map out any relationships they can. [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/12/27/fortnite-developer-reportedly-earned-3-billion-in-profits-in-2018/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/12/27/fortnite-de...
  - Gaelan 8y ago
    IIRC they read Steam friends but did not do anything with the data without consent.
    - Joakal 8y ago
      And? Just because they read non-Epic game files without consent and do nothing, doesn't mean they're not going to pull a facebook.
      - godelski 8y ago
        Not to mention that it just poses a security risk, to YOU (the consumer). More places that have your data means more ways for it to leak. Don't just blow this off as "oh but they aren't using it" (to GP, not parent). If you're going to gather data, there needs to be a reason. Hoarding it can be dangerous.
forkLding 8y ago
The issue is that the shows on iQiyi like Rap of China or Yanxi's Palace tend to be huge hits not only in China but also in places like Vietnam, Yanxi Palace was apparently the most Googled show in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Yanxi_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Yanxi_Palace). So banning them in Taiwan would probably just lead to Taiwanese audiences pirating the shows anyway. Also these shows are actually broadcasted for free on the day that episode comes out which attracts huge crowds and buzz (although lots of ads) and you don't have to be a paying member or even a member to watch and they tend to be popular even among non-paying members so there are probably more watchers than the official 2 million daily active users. Example of Yanxi Palace fame: https://sg.style.yahoo.com/singapore-actor-lawrence-wong-sending-hearts-aflutter-china-thanks-hit-period-drama-111832713.html https://sg.style.yahoo.com/singapore-actor-lawrence-wong-sen... I'm pretty sure this move will hurt the DPP more than help.
igi3ql 8y ago
Taiwan blocking Chinese websites? Good. China blocking Western websites? Bad.
- teknologist 8y ago
  It's bad when it's one way because the internet is supposed to be open. In this case, I am entirely for an eye-for-an-eye approach if it helps to show these companies what a level playing field is.
- ardy42 8y ago
  > Taiwan blocking Chinese websites? Good. > China blocking Western websites? Bad. That analysis is so oversimplified that all the important factors have been left out of it.
- C14L 8y ago
  When it really just means: Human Rights and Rule of Law? Good.
est 8y ago
China blocks anything is called censorship. Block something from China is for security risk. In the end everyone just block everyone?
- threatofrain 8y ago
  In the end everyone making choices about what kind of relations they want to have is called discretion.
- teknologist 8y ago
  China have not specified reasons for their blocking. At least the Taiwanese authorities have.
- ajkjk 8y ago
  That's.. not an argument. Of course if you omit the significant differences between two things they look the same.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  >In the end everyone just block everyone?... Would that be so terrible? Used to be a lot of time the answer was just war. Well, now, if they can't get along on the playground, people just take their marbles and go home. It's not so terrible when you consider the alternative.
  - repsilat 8y ago
    I suppose you could argue something along the (slightly different) positions that nuclear weapons reduce the likelihood of interstate conflict, and tasers increase the use of police force -- i.e. when war was the only recourse, the result was no recourse, and we were better off. Not convincing though IMO, but the point is pretty academic at this point so it's hard for me to say one way or another. Maybe we're all talking past each other? It's one thing to say that having recourse to block someone is good, but quite another to say that taking recourse to block someone is good.
- pergadad 8y ago
  The scale of the Chinese great firewall is rather unprecedented. Sites and keywords blocked, and homegrown sites have to follow constantly increasing filter lists and report users. Blocking a few sites is nothing in comparison to this.
teknologist 8y ago
I feel that this is something many more countries across the world should do considering that equivalent Western services are blocked in China.
Leary 8y ago
Risk is an insidious notion. You can justify any action by citing a potential risk. Ask yourself whether you would be okay with the United States blocking these sites.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  I would love that. Baidu's servers (which they list only for use as web crawlers; and yes, on a number of address ranges with completely different initial bytes, not just one network Baidu might have sold off to a consumer ISP) regularly try to impersonate my email addresses, I know because I get the DMARC reports. If U.S. mailservers didn't see Baidu's dishonest connections, it would be less trouble to secure my email with mail hosts who are less diligent to avoid spam. When I try to send email to the administrators of these networks, it is blackholed at the great firewall. Furthermore, my personal website which only displays my personal contact information is blocked in China. I can't do anything productive with Baidu, they are a net cost to me, while surely to them I'm a nobody.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    > Baidu's servers (which they list only for use as web crawlers Interesting, where does one go to check such a list of intended uses for a web server? Since Baidu has a cloud offering, the likeliest explanation is that the impersonation attempts are by spammers renting the servers from Baidu. > Furthermore, my personal website which only displays my personal contact information is blocked in China. Doesn't seem to be the case, unless I got the wrong website: https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      > Doesn't seem to be the case, unless I got the wrong website: https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je . That is interesting! I have some devices in Beijing and Shanghai, and I can't reach qui.suis.je from there anymore (I used to be able to). I was able to connect from Jiangsu for a week or so last month, but not since.
house_atr 8y ago
Security risk? Western Civilization and it's imitators sure do love euphemisms to go with their double standards.
mrybczyn 8y ago
Reddit is now suspect, after the major investment from PRC. I no longer visit there... I wonder if the 50 cent party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party is going to be involved in hacker news anytime soon...
- yumraj 8y ago
  Why do you think it's not involved already? Just look at any post critical of China and CCP and the new account comments and the whataboutism pointing to US that follows.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines by insinuating astroturfing without evidence. Despite the countless accusations people have posted, we've never found any evidence of that on political topics—and we've looked closely. Meanwhile it's a toxic trope that poisons discussion, one that arises for psychological reasons rather than factual ones. I've specifically written about this recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19485935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19485935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 That last link is an example of how these accusations hurt the community and individuals. Plenty more explanation here for anyone who wants it: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
- throwaway8508 8y ago
  Wow, the 59 cent part looks like the Chinese version of Operation Earnest Voice, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice
  - peisistratos 8y ago
    I (an American) ran into this. Centcom was (is?) doing things like whitewashing the No Gun Ri massacre on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=No_Gun_Ri&diff=18591944&oldid=18403374 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=No_Gun_Ri&diff=185... . That IP used to resolve to n-mnstci-142.mnstci.iraq.centcom.mil . In my spare time I add information to Wikipedia, then I am taxed and some propaganda minister in the military, being paid by my taxes, gets rid of what I said and does some Orwellian rewrite if history. These Chinese efforts seem skin to what the US government has been doing.
abhinai 8y ago
Every sovereign country has a right to block companies based on their security risk assessment. In this case however, the given reasons sound a bit flaky. Would have almost been better if they gave no reason at all.
- letstrynvm 8y ago
  It's nice you are interested in this topic. So why don't you look into it and make your opinion from the facts? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/18/chinas-interference-elections-succeeded-taiwan/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/18/chinas-in... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/taiwan-elections-meddling.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/taiwan-electio...
thoughtstheseus 8y ago
I mean, PRC occasionally threatens Taiwan and says they own/control them. Taiwan can/should protect itself in whatever way it sees fit(within reason). If that’s tech/media influence then so be it- they think that it is an issue.
- peisistratos 8y ago
  > PRC occasionally threatens Taiwan and says they own/control them Huh? The PRC has said Taiwan and the mainland are one country since 1949, and the Taiwanese government has said the same since 1949. The previous Taiwanese president, Ma Ying-jeou, said this all the time.
  - eastendguy 8y ago
    PRC is threatening a military attack on Taiwan. Xi said so just a few weeks ago. I have never heard a similar statement from any Taiwanese politician in this century. All that Taiwan wants is to stay independent and democratic.
    - godelski 8y ago
      > PRC is threatening a military attack on Taiwan. Xi said so just a few weeks ago. Do you have a good source on this? I just searched it and DDG didn't come up with any news source I know is reputable. The first 5 links I get are: newsmax.com, news.com.au, theglobeandmail.com, france24.com, and tibetsun.com
      - eastendguy 8y ago
        Here is 习近平 himself saying so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iBJK-doMM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iBJK-doMM4 "We do not promise to renounce the use of force and reserve the option to use all necessary measures."
  - learc83 8y ago
    >the Taiwanese government has said the same since 1949 Taiwan has to say this. China views Taiwan relinquishing their claim to the mainland as a deceleration of independence and justification for invasion.
suiting 8y ago
For people not familiar with the situation, there are many similarities between China/Taiwan and Russia/Ukraine. We speak similar languages and we are geographically close to each other. The recent propaganda from China in specific Taiwanese media have raised concerns in many Taiwanese people and of course the current governing party. That’s one of the reason behind this move. There are also news claiming that 2020 might be the last “real” election Taiwanese people will have. In general Taiwan in 2019 is like Crimea in 2013 and we have to do something.
twboy123 8y ago
Taiwan should block all IT company of China. They all are spy.
vfulco2 8y ago
decentralized will save the world from evil.

171 points by ilamont 8y ago

Makes sense, China uses investments and media to alter perception of its policies abroad. The US and other Western nations block Chinese investment into infrastructure and tech, why not media as well?

chrischen 8y ago

If you are blocking rather relying on a strong base of educated voters, then are you any different from China, or have you essentially lost and have adopted your enemy’s ideals?

ardy42 8y ago
> If you are blocking rather relying on a strong base of educated voters, then are you any different from China, or have you essentially lost and have adopted your enemy’s ideals? No. Strong bases of educated voters don't emerge fully-formed from the Earth or something. It takes time to develop them and in that time they're vulnerable.
- chrischen 8y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. It's true, but the path to develop is littered with corruption, inefficiency, and general learn-from-mistakes policies.

dleslie 8y ago

Tencent is making large moves into youth-targeting western media. They are also the world's largest gaming company; League of Legends, PUBG, et cetera are Tencent properties. For instance, they own something like 40% of Epic Games, who is currently throwing large envelopes of cash around to secure a strong position in video game distribution. If there is cause to be concerned about China applying soft power to sway western opinions, then there is cause to be concerned about Tencent.

NicoJuicy 8y ago
I'm increasingly concerned about this and so are others. I have never talked about my brother about this, but they had banned TikTok for their daughter because it was Chinese owned.
sodosopa 8y ago
related: > Reddit confirms $300M Series D led by China’s Tencent at $3B value https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/11/reddit-300-million/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/11/reddit-300-million/
HenryBemis 8y ago
Epic runs Fortnite, that allegedly made $3bn profit in 2018 [1]. That is not a small feat, plus they have a foothold in millions of machines. And from the dialogue we had in HN a few days ago on how Fortnite was accessing/scanning steam friends it seems that they are pretty greedy to map out any relationships they can. [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/12/27/fortnite-developer-reportedly-earned-3-billion-in-profits-in-2018/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/12/27/fortnite-de...
- Gaelan 8y ago
  IIRC they read Steam friends but did not do anything with the data without consent.
  - Joakal 8y ago
    And? Just because they read non-Epic game files without consent and do nothing, doesn't mean they're not going to pull a facebook.
    - godelski 8y ago
      Not to mention that it just poses a security risk, to YOU (the consumer). More places that have your data means more ways for it to leak. Don't just blow this off as "oh but they aren't using it" (to GP, not parent). If you're going to gather data, there needs to be a reason. Hoarding it can be dangerous.

forkLding 8y ago

The issue is that the shows on iQiyi like Rap of China or Yanxi's Palace tend to be huge hits not only in China but also in places like Vietnam, Yanxi Palace was apparently the most Googled show in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Yanxi_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Yanxi_Palace). So banning them in Taiwan would probably just lead to Taiwanese audiences pirating the shows anyway. Also these shows are actually broadcasted for free on the day that episode comes out which attracts huge crowds and buzz (although lots of ads) and you don't have to be a paying member or even a member to watch and they tend to be popular even among non-paying members so there are probably more watchers than the official 2 million daily active users. Example of Yanxi Palace fame: https://sg.style.yahoo.com/singapore-actor-lawrence-wong-sending-hearts-aflutter-china-thanks-hit-period-drama-111832713.html https://sg.style.yahoo.com/singapore-actor-lawrence-wong-sen... I'm pretty sure this move will hurt the DPP more than help.

igi3ql 8y ago

Taiwan blocking Chinese websites? Good. China blocking Western websites? Bad.

teknologist 8y ago
It's bad when it's one way because the internet is supposed to be open. In this case, I am entirely for an eye-for-an-eye approach if it helps to show these companies what a level playing field is.
ardy42 8y ago
> Taiwan blocking Chinese websites? Good. > China blocking Western websites? Bad. That analysis is so oversimplified that all the important factors have been left out of it.
C14L 8y ago
When it really just means: Human Rights and Rule of Law? Good.

est 8y ago

China blocks anything is called censorship. Block something from China is for security risk. In the end everyone just block everyone?

threatofrain 8y ago
In the end everyone making choices about what kind of relations they want to have is called discretion.
teknologist 8y ago
China have not specified reasons for their blocking. At least the Taiwanese authorities have.
ajkjk 8y ago
That's.. not an argument. Of course if you omit the significant differences between two things they look the same.
bilbo0s 8y ago
>In the end everyone just block everyone?... Would that be so terrible? Used to be a lot of time the answer was just war. Well, now, if they can't get along on the playground, people just take their marbles and go home. It's not so terrible when you consider the alternative.
- repsilat 8y ago
  I suppose you could argue something along the (slightly different) positions that nuclear weapons reduce the likelihood of interstate conflict, and tasers increase the use of police force -- i.e. when war was the only recourse, the result was no recourse, and we were better off. Not convincing though IMO, but the point is pretty academic at this point so it's hard for me to say one way or another. Maybe we're all talking past each other? It's one thing to say that having recourse to block someone is good, but quite another to say that taking recourse to block someone is good.
pergadad 8y ago
The scale of the Chinese great firewall is rather unprecedented. Sites and keywords blocked, and homegrown sites have to follow constantly increasing filter lists and report users. Blocking a few sites is nothing in comparison to this.

teknologist 8y ago

I feel that this is something many more countries across the world should do considering that equivalent Western services are blocked in China.

Leary 8y ago

Risk is an insidious notion. You can justify any action by citing a potential risk. Ask yourself whether you would be okay with the United States blocking these sites.

microcolonel 8y ago
I would love that. Baidu's servers (which they list only for use as web crawlers; and yes, on a number of address ranges with completely different initial bytes, not just one network Baidu might have sold off to a consumer ISP) regularly try to impersonate my email addresses, I know because I get the DMARC reports. If U.S. mailservers didn't see Baidu's dishonest connections, it would be less trouble to secure my email with mail hosts who are less diligent to avoid spam. When I try to send email to the administrators of these networks, it is blackholed at the great firewall. Furthermore, my personal website which only displays my personal contact information is blocked in China. I can't do anything productive with Baidu, they are a net cost to me, while surely to them I'm a nobody.
- yorwba 8y ago
  > Baidu's servers (which they list only for use as web crawlers Interesting, where does one go to check such a list of intended uses for a web server? Since Baidu has a cloud offering, the likeliest explanation is that the impersonation attempts are by spammers renting the servers from Baidu. > Furthermore, my personal website which only displays my personal contact information is blocked in China. Doesn't seem to be the case, unless I got the wrong website: https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > Doesn't seem to be the case, unless I got the wrong website: https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je https://en.greatfire.org/qui.suis.je . That is interesting! I have some devices in Beijing and Shanghai, and I can't reach qui.suis.je from there anymore (I used to be able to). I was able to connect from Jiangsu for a week or so last month, but not since.

house_atr 8y ago

Security risk? Western Civilization and it's imitators sure do love euphemisms to go with their double standards.

mrybczyn 8y ago

Reddit is now suspect, after the major investment from PRC. I no longer visit there... I wonder if the 50 cent party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party is going to be involved in hacker news anytime soon...

yumraj 8y ago
Why do you think it's not involved already? Just look at any post critical of China and CCP and the new account comments and the whataboutism pointing to US that follows.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines by insinuating astroturfing without evidence. Despite the countless accusations people have posted, we've never found any evidence of that on political topics—and we've looked closely. Meanwhile it's a toxic trope that poisons discussion, one that arises for psychological reasons rather than factual ones. I've specifically written about this recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19485935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19485935 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19404162 That last link is an example of how these accusations hurt the community and individuals. Plenty more explanation here for anyone who wants it: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturfing https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
throwaway8508 8y ago
Wow, the 59 cent part looks like the Chinese version of Operation Earnest Voice, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Earnest_Voice
- peisistratos 8y ago
  I (an American) ran into this. Centcom was (is?) doing things like whitewashing the No Gun Ri massacre on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=No_Gun_Ri&diff=18591944&oldid=18403374 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=No_Gun_Ri&diff=185... . That IP used to resolve to n-mnstci-142.mnstci.iraq.centcom.mil . In my spare time I add information to Wikipedia, then I am taxed and some propaganda minister in the military, being paid by my taxes, gets rid of what I said and does some Orwellian rewrite if history. These Chinese efforts seem skin to what the US government has been doing.

abhinai 8y ago

Every sovereign country has a right to block companies based on their security risk assessment. In this case however, the given reasons sound a bit flaky. Would have almost been better if they gave no reason at all.

letstrynvm 8y ago
It's nice you are interested in this topic. So why don't you look into it and make your opinion from the facts? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/18/chinas-interference-elections-succeeded-taiwan/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/18/chinas-in... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/taiwan-elections-meddling.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/taiwan-electio...

thoughtstheseus 8y ago

I mean, PRC occasionally threatens Taiwan and says they own/control them. Taiwan can/should protect itself in whatever way it sees fit(within reason). If that’s tech/media influence then so be it- they think that it is an issue.

peisistratos 8y ago
> PRC occasionally threatens Taiwan and says they own/control them Huh? The PRC has said Taiwan and the mainland are one country since 1949, and the Taiwanese government has said the same since 1949. The previous Taiwanese president, Ma Ying-jeou, said this all the time.
- eastendguy 8y ago
  PRC is threatening a military attack on Taiwan. Xi said so just a few weeks ago. I have never heard a similar statement from any Taiwanese politician in this century. All that Taiwan wants is to stay independent and democratic.
  - godelski 8y ago
    > PRC is threatening a military attack on Taiwan. Xi said so just a few weeks ago. Do you have a good source on this? I just searched it and DDG didn't come up with any news source I know is reputable. The first 5 links I get are: newsmax.com, news.com.au, theglobeandmail.com, france24.com, and tibetsun.com
    - eastendguy 8y ago
      Here is 习近平 himself saying so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iBJK-doMM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iBJK-doMM4 "We do not promise to renounce the use of force and reserve the option to use all necessary measures."
- learc83 8y ago
  >the Taiwanese government has said the same since 1949 Taiwan has to say this. China views Taiwan relinquishing their claim to the mainland as a deceleration of independence and justification for invasion.

suiting 8y ago

For people not familiar with the situation, there are many similarities between China/Taiwan and Russia/Ukraine. We speak similar languages and we are geographically close to each other. The recent propaganda from China in specific Taiwanese media have raised concerns in many Taiwanese people and of course the current governing party. That’s one of the reason behind this move. There are also news claiming that 2020 might be the last “real” election Taiwanese people will have. In general Taiwan in 2019 is like Crimea in 2013 and we have to do something.

twboy123 8y ago

Taiwan should block all IT company of China. They all are spy.

vfulco2 8y ago

decentralized will save the world from evil.