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And what makes you believe the next video in the series is not equally misleading? Many claims, but zero evidence. A lot of evidence on the contrary from other

And what makes you believe the next video in the series is not equally misleading? Many claims, but zero evidence. A lot of evidence on the contrary from other sources, such as the reports on the website of European Parliament. Or are you suggesting those are made up?

repolfx 8y ago
Why do you say zero evidence? Have you actually watched the videos? He provides video evidence from EP sessions backing up each of his many claims. Then the second video I cite shows more MEPs from different countries and parties complaining about the same problems. Also, we have the story actually being discussed in this thread, where numerous MEPs claim they accidentally voted wrong. So that's three sources. I'm not sure the website of the European Parliament should count as a source when discussing the problematic procedures of the European Parliament. That might tell you what the EP wants you to believe but surely direct observation via video is more compelling? After all, a major claim (supported by video clips) is that the EP routinely counts its own votes wrongly, so official reports on voting must be taken with a pinch of salt.
- trickstra 8y ago
  Oh come on. His videos don't really show you the context, only very specific moments that he want's you to see. Only the special cases. How can you count that as relevant evidence, and then dismiss the official EP records as "what if they just want you to believe..."
  - repolfx 8y ago
    OK, you're implying at this point misleading editing, false claims and more. But in this thread we've presented three sources of MEPs saying this is a real problem, that back each other up. The onus is now on you to find rebuttals that undermine that testimony, which again, is convincing because it comes from the people who are actually working in this chamber. Now I haven't actually dismissed any evidence because you haven't presented any: it's totally unclear what reports you mean, or what they might say that voids the problems shown in the video. Please do cite specific reports that explain how this video evidence is wrong or falsified. For the avoidance of doubt, NO institution calling itself a Parliament should find itself in the situation where votes are being counted wrong, EVER. This should be obvious but the sole purpose of a Parliament is to vote: votes are their only output. Creating a situation where it's possible to vote wrong by accident, in any way at all, is a gross breach of basic competence and massively undermines their entire institution.
    - trickstra 8y ago
      The videos show some members outraged at the speed of voting, yet we never see what they are voting about. If they are voting about the agenda, I don't care. If they are voting about Copyright act, I care a lot. The video is misleading because it's trying to portray it as very important voting, but never shows the subject, so we cannot decide for ourselves and are forced to accept their narrative that this was "some kind of important vote", which is a problem. The reports I mean are of course these: https://oeil.secure.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/ficheprocedure.do?lang=en&reference=2016/0280(COD) https://oeil.secure.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/ficheproc... http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?secondRef=TOC&language=EN&reference=20190326&type=CRE http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?secondRef=TOC&... - if you ever want to find any actual data about any actual vote, you'll find it here. It seems you are not really searching for data, you just let some populists feed you what they want to project and then share it on. That's another problem in your logic. Did you ever wonder why none of those 10 MPs who claimed to have voted in mistake due to high speed, or that Polish populist MP, published a video of the actual vote for the Copyright Act? If we can find too high speed there, then I'll accept your point. But they never published anything like that, even though they apparently have very easy access to the whole video archive, since it let's them create very specific short videos about their point. Well the transcripts just before the vote look like this: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+CRE+20190326+ITEM-007-11+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//... let me quote the last speaker just before the vote: "Two hundred thousand people went on the streets and five million signed the petition. Let me recall that the title of the Directive is: ‘Copyright in the Digital Single Market’. It’s our duty to fix issues of great concern at European level and not in the national legislation. For this reason, I ask for your support to open the Directive to the amendments and request a vote on these amendments that so many of us have signed." video here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/EN/vod.html?mode=unit&vodLanguage=EN&startTime=20190326-12:48:04-384# http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/EN/vod.html?mode=unit&... Do you think anyone in their right mind can misjudge what the following vote will be about? The chairman even repeats the subject of the vote, uses phrases like "I hope it's clear now", "Have you all voted?" before closing the vote, there was applause after the amendment vote failed, "The vote is now open" for the final vote, which then takes 20 seconds. EVERYBODY had time to translate, the last couple of seconds is complete silence, no need to look around and count hands because it was electronic. Now.. is this enough rebuttal for you? I don't need to see short video sequences of angry politicians from unknown time, about unknown voting, shared by known populists. What I'm after is real data. It takes much more effort to get them, but it's the only right way forward.

repolfx 8y ago

Why do you say zero evidence? Have you actually watched the videos? He provides video evidence from EP sessions backing up each of his many claims. Then the second video I cite shows more MEPs from different countries and parties complaining about the same problems. Also, we have the story actually being discussed in this thread, where numerous MEPs claim they accidentally voted wrong. So that's three sources. I'm not sure the website of the European Parliament should count as a source when discussing the problematic procedures of the European Parliament. That might tell you what the EP wants you to believe but surely direct observation via video is more compelling? After all, a major claim (supported by video clips) is that the EP routinely counts its own votes wrongly, so official reports on voting must be taken with a pinch of salt.

trickstra 8y ago
Oh come on. His videos don't really show you the context, only very specific moments that he want's you to see. Only the special cases. How can you count that as relevant evidence, and then dismiss the official EP records as "what if they just want you to believe..."
- repolfx 8y ago
  OK, you're implying at this point misleading editing, false claims and more. But in this thread we've presented three sources of MEPs saying this is a real problem, that back each other up. The onus is now on you to find rebuttals that undermine that testimony, which again, is convincing because it comes from the people who are actually working in this chamber. Now I haven't actually dismissed any evidence because you haven't presented any: it's totally unclear what reports you mean, or what they might say that voids the problems shown in the video. Please do cite specific reports that explain how this video evidence is wrong or falsified. For the avoidance of doubt, NO institution calling itself a Parliament should find itself in the situation where votes are being counted wrong, EVER. This should be obvious but the sole purpose of a Parliament is to vote: votes are their only output. Creating a situation where it's possible to vote wrong by accident, in any way at all, is a gross breach of basic competence and massively undermines their entire institution.
  - trickstra 8y ago
    The videos show some members outraged at the speed of voting, yet we never see what they are voting about. If they are voting about the agenda, I don't care. If they are voting about Copyright act, I care a lot. The video is misleading because it's trying to portray it as very important voting, but never shows the subject, so we cannot decide for ourselves and are forced to accept their narrative that this was "some kind of important vote", which is a problem. The reports I mean are of course these: https://oeil.secure.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/ficheprocedure.do?lang=en&reference=2016/0280(COD) https://oeil.secure.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popups/ficheproc... http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?secondRef=TOC&language=EN&reference=20190326&type=CRE http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?secondRef=TOC&... - if you ever want to find any actual data about any actual vote, you'll find it here. It seems you are not really searching for data, you just let some populists feed you what they want to project and then share it on. That's another problem in your logic. Did you ever wonder why none of those 10 MPs who claimed to have voted in mistake due to high speed, or that Polish populist MP, published a video of the actual vote for the Copyright Act? If we can find too high speed there, then I'll accept your point. But they never published anything like that, even though they apparently have very easy access to the whole video archive, since it let's them create very specific short videos about their point. Well the transcripts just before the vote look like this: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+CRE+20190326+ITEM-007-11+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//... let me quote the last speaker just before the vote: "Two hundred thousand people went on the streets and five million signed the petition. Let me recall that the title of the Directive is: ‘Copyright in the Digital Single Market’. It’s our duty to fix issues of great concern at European level and not in the national legislation. For this reason, I ask for your support to open the Directive to the amendments and request a vote on these amendments that so many of us have signed." video here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/EN/vod.html?mode=unit&vodLanguage=EN&startTime=20190326-12:48:04-384# http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/EN/vod.html?mode=unit&... Do you think anyone in their right mind can misjudge what the following vote will be about? The chairman even repeats the subject of the vote, uses phrases like "I hope it's clear now", "Have you all voted?" before closing the vote, there was applause after the amendment vote failed, "The vote is now open" for the final vote, which then takes 20 seconds. EVERYBODY had time to translate, the last couple of seconds is complete silence, no need to look around and count hands because it was electronic. Now.. is this enough rebuttal for you? I don't need to see short video sequences of angry politicians from unknown time, about unknown voting, shared by known populists. What I'm after is real data. It takes much more effort to get them, but it's the only right way forward.