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A slave owner gives an otherwise hungry man food and housing. That doesn't mean slavery is at all justifiable. Uber pays people who otherwise might not have a

by fiblye 8y ago

A slave owner gives an otherwise hungry man food and housing. That doesn't mean slavery is at all justifiable. Uber pays people who otherwise might not have a job at all. That doesn't mean paying them incredibly low wages is something that should be free of criticism.

umanwizard 8y ago
Completely different situation. Slaves were not better off under slavery than they were at home in West Africa, nor were they free to go back if they didn't like the deal. If Uber were kidnapping people and forcing them to become drivers at gunpoint, you might have a point.
ars 8y ago
> A slave owner gives an otherwise hungry man food and housing. That doesn't mean slavery is at all justifiable. Slave by its very definition implies lack of choice by the other person. > Uber pays people who otherwise might not have a job at all. That doesn't mean paying them incredibly low wages is something that should be free of criticism. Yes, actually, it does mean that. That's the nature of choice. If someone is offering you something you otherwise would not have, you don't get the right to complain that they are not giving you more.
- Forge36 8y ago
  I'm not following your logic, are you suggesting you wouldn't ask for a raise? There are a lot of moving pieces. The abolishment of slavery didn't end slavery and it's conditions. It changed the name and the rules. Many slaves became trapped in indentured servitude without enough pay to cover the cost of housing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude Eventually this became illegal as well, another tactic was paying employees through company credits to buy goods at the company store. Eventually this too became illegal. During all of this Jim Crow laws were made to prevent further integration, schooling, and the advancement to higher paying jobs. The origin of the phrase grandfather clause came about as a way to prevent voting for representatives who could represent them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause This hasn't ended either, we now deal with gerrymandering. I don't believe the ability choose a log of last resort means that job can be free of criticism. Yes it provides a vital service: given that service is insufficient to meet basic needs, improvements are needed. That may mean better services to provide jobs or providing a minimum pay with which basic needs can be guaranteed.
  - umanwizard 8y ago
    > given that service is insufficient to meet basic needs, improvements are needed Sure, and why is it Uber's responsibility to make those improvements?
    - fiblye 8y ago
      Is your argument that companies have zero responsibility to pay their employees reasonably? What is even the purpose of a company? Make unicorn valuation through low wages, write a couple blog posts, then dip?
      - umanwizard 8y ago
        > Is your argument that companies have zero responsibility to pay their employees reasonably? Yeah, that sums it up. Companies have a responsibility to keep the agreements they make, and to not harm anyone. They don't have a positive responsibility to improve people's lives -- they're not charities. > What is even the purpose of a company? To make some people better off than they were before, by way of voluntary exchange, without hurting anyone. If they're not doing that, if they're actually making people worse off than they would be otherwise, then that should of course be stopped.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    > I'm not following your logic, are you suggesting you wouldn't ask for a raise? A raise is a negotiation. You ask for a raise, they say yes or no. If they say no, you go find another job that pays what you want, and you take that one instead. Which is why, when you have that option, they may say yes to begin with. > That may mean better services to provide jobs or providing a minimum pay with which basic needs can be guaranteed. Expecting this to be provided by the employer of last resort is ridiculously inefficient. The underlying problem is that the cost of living is more than the value of the labor of some people. The two main solutions that are to reduce the cost of living (e.g. housing costs), or to give up and subsidize their compensation somehow as a humanitarian gesture. The first is vastly preferable, but even when you resign yourself to the second, you want something like a UBI rather than price controls because it spreads the burden more evenly across everyone rather than imposing it only on the companies who employ the people at the bottom. Price controls, by contrast, create a bunch of weird cliffs and perverse incentives. They cause reductions in hours or unemployment, and they're arbitrary lines. So if you raise the minimum to $10 then you do nothing for someone who is currently making $10, even though they're struggling too and it would be preferable for them to have some assistance as well. e.g. because they receive the same UBI but since they make more money than the person making $6 they also pay proportionally more taxes and give a small amount of it back. The person making $25/hour ends up paying even more taxes, and so on, until the taxes exceed the UBI. Whereas if you raise the minimum to $25 to try to also help the person at $10 then you cause a lot more unemployment.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
remote_phone 8y ago
Incredibly low wages? This is only a handful of people you’re hearing from. Every uber driver I talk to is happy driving. You’re hearing from Some drivers that think they deserve to be paid 6 figures because they drive people around. It’s by definition a low-skill job. If they want more money they need to make themselves more valuable and find better jobs. I use the jobspotter app to make extra money on the side so I know first hand how many “hiring” signs are shown in various areas in the Bay Area. You can find a job if you want. Almost every place is hiring. To say that Uber is your only choice is bullshit. If you can’t find a better job in this economy and market then it’s you, not the market. And if you don’t like what you’re being paid then find a new job. It’s really as simple as that.

by fiblye 8y ago

umanwizard 8y ago

Completely different situation. Slaves were not better off under slavery than they were at home in West Africa, nor were they free to go back if they didn't like the deal. If Uber were kidnapping people and forcing them to become drivers at gunpoint, you might have a point.

ars 8y ago

> A slave owner gives an otherwise hungry man food and housing. That doesn't mean slavery is at all justifiable. Slave by its very definition implies lack of choice by the other person. > Uber pays people who otherwise might not have a job at all. That doesn't mean paying them incredibly low wages is something that should be free of criticism. Yes, actually, it does mean that. That's the nature of choice. If someone is offering you something you otherwise would not have, you don't get the right to complain that they are not giving you more.

Forge36 8y ago
I'm not following your logic, are you suggesting you wouldn't ask for a raise? There are a lot of moving pieces. The abolishment of slavery didn't end slavery and it's conditions. It changed the name and the rules. Many slaves became trapped in indentured servitude without enough pay to cover the cost of housing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude Eventually this became illegal as well, another tactic was paying employees through company credits to buy goods at the company store. Eventually this too became illegal. During all of this Jim Crow laws were made to prevent further integration, schooling, and the advancement to higher paying jobs. The origin of the phrase grandfather clause came about as a way to prevent voting for representatives who could represent them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause This hasn't ended either, we now deal with gerrymandering. I don't believe the ability choose a log of last resort means that job can be free of criticism. Yes it provides a vital service: given that service is insufficient to meet basic needs, improvements are needed. That may mean better services to provide jobs or providing a minimum pay with which basic needs can be guaranteed.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  > given that service is insufficient to meet basic needs, improvements are needed Sure, and why is it Uber's responsibility to make those improvements?
  - fiblye 8y ago
    Is your argument that companies have zero responsibility to pay their employees reasonably? What is even the purpose of a company? Make unicorn valuation through low wages, write a couple blog posts, then dip?
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      > Is your argument that companies have zero responsibility to pay their employees reasonably? Yeah, that sums it up. Companies have a responsibility to keep the agreements they make, and to not harm anyone. They don't have a positive responsibility to improve people's lives -- they're not charities. > What is even the purpose of a company? To make some people better off than they were before, by way of voluntary exchange, without hurting anyone. If they're not doing that, if they're actually making people worse off than they would be otherwise, then that should of course be stopped.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  > I'm not following your logic, are you suggesting you wouldn't ask for a raise? A raise is a negotiation. You ask for a raise, they say yes or no. If they say no, you go find another job that pays what you want, and you take that one instead. Which is why, when you have that option, they may say yes to begin with. > That may mean better services to provide jobs or providing a minimum pay with which basic needs can be guaranteed. Expecting this to be provided by the employer of last resort is ridiculously inefficient. The underlying problem is that the cost of living is more than the value of the labor of some people. The two main solutions that are to reduce the cost of living (e.g. housing costs), or to give up and subsidize their compensation somehow as a humanitarian gesture. The first is vastly preferable, but even when you resign yourself to the second, you want something like a UBI rather than price controls because it spreads the burden more evenly across everyone rather than imposing it only on the companies who employ the people at the bottom. Price controls, by contrast, create a bunch of weird cliffs and perverse incentives. They cause reductions in hours or unemployment, and they're arbitrary lines. So if you raise the minimum to $10 then you do nothing for someone who is currently making $10, even though they're struggling too and it would be preferable for them to have some assistance as well. e.g. because they receive the same UBI but since they make more money than the person making $6 they also pay proportionally more taxes and give a small amount of it back. The person making $25/hour ends up paying even more taxes, and so on, until the taxes exceed the UBI. Whereas if you raise the minimum to $25 to try to also help the person at $10 then you cause a lot more unemployment.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

remote_phone 8y ago

Incredibly low wages? This is only a handful of people you’re hearing from. Every uber driver I talk to is happy driving. You’re hearing from Some drivers that think they deserve to be paid 6 figures because they drive people around. It’s by definition a low-skill job. If they want more money they need to make themselves more valuable and find better jobs. I use the jobspotter app to make extra money on the side so I know first hand how many “hiring” signs are shown in various areas in the Bay Area. You can find a job if you want. Almost every place is hiring. To say that Uber is your only choice is bullshit. If you can’t find a better job in this economy and market then it’s you, not the market. And if you don’t like what you’re being paid then find a new job. It’s really as simple as that.