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> So why aren’t we all using either of these two languages? because $bigcorp's dreams with languages such as Java was not to be incredibly productive, but to b

> So why aren’t we all using either of these two languages? because $bigcorp's dreams with languages such as Java was not to be incredibly productive, but to be able to fire a whole team, hire replacements, and have them be more-or-less productive on day 1. Can't do that if every project lives in its own DSL.

ken 8y ago
Even in a lower-level language, is it possible to be productive on day 1? Instead of learning an explicit DSL, you're learning an implicit one spread across 10 or 100 times as much code. Imagine if regexes didn't exist, and you showed up at a new company and they had hundreds of lines of Java for every little string matching function. Would anyone find that more productive? Even if regexes were never used outside of that one project, I think they'd be a huge win. Especially at a bigco. My experience is you spend a while just getting all your accounts set up. Half the time, I haven't even known the programming language they used, so I spend weeks/months ramping up on that, even though it's not domain-specific. Spending a couple days learning a new DSL is just rounding error.
- jcelerier 8y ago
  I'm not saying that this idea is grounded in reality :)
sulam 8y ago
This is both really wrong factually and really cynical to a degree that is also wrong. This may be _some_ people's dreams, but the reality is that this is not the foundation story of Java, at all. Java's popularity had more to do with its portability (you could write your code on your Windoze box and then deploy it to SunOS or Linux with a reasonable expectation of it working just fine) and its safety (it was a marked improvement over C) than on the dream that it would be the language that allowed for offshoring your team. In fact, amusingly, I'd argue Golang is more explicitly designed to be able to bring new developers up to speed rapidly and not requiring them to be language experts to be productive. This has direct impact with respect to being able to hire developers, possibly en masse. And hey, whaddaya know, it was dreamed up by a $bigcorp way bigger than Sun was back in the day. The reality tho is that $bigcorp just wants to be able to write more code, not replace the coders they already have.
zmmmmm 8y ago
There is a less cynical version of this that is closer to the truth. Because $bigcorp is big there is proportionately much more money at stake if software suddenly becomes unmaintainable. There are various forms of insurance you can take out against that, but one is definitely "Yes I could pay a really expensive consulting company to front up 5 developers within 24 hours that could diagnose a problem in my code the day after my 3l1te dev team lead quit to join $startup". I am betting you would think this way too if you were in charge of such a team / product. It is a completely logical form of risk management.

ken 8y ago

Even in a lower-level language, is it possible to be productive on day 1? Instead of learning an explicit DSL, you're learning an implicit one spread across 10 or 100 times as much code. Imagine if regexes didn't exist, and you showed up at a new company and they had hundreds of lines of Java for every little string matching function. Would anyone find that more productive? Even if regexes were never used outside of that one project, I think they'd be a huge win. Especially at a bigco. My experience is you spend a while just getting all your accounts set up. Half the time, I haven't even known the programming language they used, so I spend weeks/months ramping up on that, even though it's not domain-specific. Spending a couple days learning a new DSL is just rounding error.

jcelerier 8y ago
I'm not saying that this idea is grounded in reality :)

sulam 8y ago

This is both really wrong factually and really cynical to a degree that is also wrong. This may be _some_ people's dreams, but the reality is that this is not the foundation story of Java, at all. Java's popularity had more to do with its portability (you could write your code on your Windoze box and then deploy it to SunOS or Linux with a reasonable expectation of it working just fine) and its safety (it was a marked improvement over C) than on the dream that it would be the language that allowed for offshoring your team. In fact, amusingly, I'd argue Golang is more explicitly designed to be able to bring new developers up to speed rapidly and not requiring them to be language experts to be productive. This has direct impact with respect to being able to hire developers, possibly en masse. And hey, whaddaya know, it was dreamed up by a $bigcorp way bigger than Sun was back in the day. The reality tho is that $bigcorp just wants to be able to write more code, not replace the coders they already have.

zmmmmm 8y ago

There is a less cynical version of this that is closer to the truth. Because $bigcorp is big there is proportionately much more money at stake if software suddenly becomes unmaintainable. There are various forms of insurance you can take out against that, but one is definitely "Yes I could pay a really expensive consulting company to front up 5 developers within 24 hours that could diagnose a problem in my code the day after my 3l1te dev team lead quit to join $startup". I am betting you would think this way too if you were in charge of such a team / product. It is a completely logical form of risk management.