15 ms·

Show HN: Grassland – Real-Life SimCity

184 points by david_at 8y ago

webdva 8y ago
Wow, very cool and inspiring stuff.
- david_at 8y ago
  Thank you. Much appreciated :)
sdan 8y ago
Can you put this on a car to get a full 360 view of what's going on?
- david_at 8y ago
  Unfortunately, no. Not at this time. Your node calibrates itself and interprets what it sees in each 2D video frame into the real 3D world by 'knowing' where its 'virtual self' is placed in the 3D map of the real world that you'll find in the GUI. When you set up your node, you have to do set this calibration once, manually using the GUI and its accuracy in space is down to half a centimetre on the earth's surface and its accuracy in time is down to a millisecond. If it was on the top of the car, the node would have to be constantly updated automatically. But GPS is no where near that accurate. I guess you could use a combination involving LIDAR to constantly tell the node where it is so the car's position is updated in Grassland. But it would make more computational/economic sense for the government and economically self-interested citizens (interested in mining Grassland's coin) to line the streets with ip cameras which grassland nodes can read from to analyze and broadcast car and pedestrian locations/speed etc. etc. millisecond by millisecond. Which self driving cars could pick up and 'know' everything going on around them even things they can't 'see' themselves.
  - raidicy 8y ago
    What's stopping me from finding all the unsecured IP cameras in my city and using them to "mine" data? Further, if I could do that what's stopping others from reusing the nodes that I set up?
    - david_at 8y ago
      > What's stopping me from finding all the unsecured IP cameras in my city and using them to "mine" data? Absolutely nothing. > Further, if I could do that what's stopping others from reusing the nodes that I set up? Right now, nothing. Nodes could overlap other nodes. But they're still using compute cycles so they're still spending money. The only issue is, who gets theirs into the tree first. And if the hash is the same, you better be first or you're just wasting time. Keep in mind, I've still got a lot of work to do. And until today, I've been working on this by myself. And pretty much since last summer. You can see the list of tasks that I need to complete on the site under "Beta Version".
      - raidicy 8y ago
        Thanks for answering my question. And I want to say I appreciate what you're doing. Information is power and it's being leveraged against individuals practically unchecked. If I had to guess some state actor would have come up with (or already has) with a technology like this eventually. Everything in that system would be kept private and be leveraged against the individual without consent. Tools would be built with it that contain their own biases and uses. The appeal of using this system against others would be too great, either for those in power or those who seek to sell the ability. For that reason I like the ubiquitous access _everyone_ would have. Distributing this to everyone reminds me of the end of "The Stars My Destination" To continue with my original question though; I'm guessing whatever system has faster compute cycles will win the race of who hashes first? Will you be able to tell who's hash gets there first
        david_at 8y ago
        > I'm guessing whatever system has faster compute cycles will win the race of who hashes first? Will you be able to tell who's hash gets there first Yes, but it's not just about hashing power though. And there's no nonce like Bitcoin. It's mostly about deep learning inference power. You can see the process described on the website under "Unrewriteable History And Reasonable Storage Requirements" (though I'll probably change that title soon and call it "[something] Merkle Tree"). I've copied the last bullet point here... * The process of producing the next Merkle Tree is a competition any node can compete in. A person who cultivates real trees is an Arborist so we'll use that term. Our "arborists" will also need to perform inference on the frames that were randomly selected for evaluation based on the last Merkle root, and will need to publish each frame's digest tuple and the "reserved digest" (see diagram). If the original node holding the reserved digest signs the arborist's digest, it generates that node's reward coins and a percentage goes to the arborist. But that will only propogate if that arborist's tree is also accepted by a majority of the network. Therefore, as long as (1) there is always active competition to compute the Merkle Tree by statistically verifying the work of all other nodes and (2) over 50% of every active node prevents inflation of the money supply by rejecting trees that don't pass their proof-of-work, then all rational (self-interested) nodes will have to be honest.
  - lovich 8y ago
    If the accuracy is down to half a centimeter , this is something that would need to be re-calibrated several times a year. The tectonic plates move over 1 cm per year, and any type of earthquake can shift land by significantly more than a half centimeter
rosstex 8y ago
What are the privacy implications of such a system?
- traderjane 8y ago
  It may allow organizations and governments to hold each other accountable, because generally there's an inappropriate coordination or centralization of the data-gathering machinery and the political/financial machinery. As for privacy, I think it will serve to add more players to the data game, balancing the powers.
  - rosstex 8y ago
    Sorry, let me just list the first use case: "A citizen... who wants to know what any citizen... is doing at this moment or has ever done before" uh
    - grenoire 8y ago
      I thought I was just tripping when I read that line. The whole thing is eerie as fuck.
    - usrusr 8y ago
      More power to those who have the resources to get the digging done for them. Even with a perfect AI interface, you could only ask "Alexa" so many questions in 24 hours. Lowly individuals would gain absolutely nothing, they have better things to do than sniffing each other's data trails. That investment of time would in the overwhelming majority only be worthwhile for malicious use cases. Even in the simple stalker/stalker evasion scenario: the stalker would enjoy digging into the data, but for the stalkee, keeping track of the stalker for avoidance would be a terrible chore.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    As for privacy, I think it will serve to add more players to the data game, balancing the powers. Until Facebook and Google each order seven million of them and place them all over town to monitor your personal activities, even when you're offline.
krrishd 8y ago
Looking for a link to the PDF of it, but I’m reminded of David’s Gelernter’s “Mirror World” [0] concept from the 1990s, was lucky enough to encounter it in one of my classes. Hadn’t thought of the proposal as more than sci-fi but here we are :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_world
- david_at 8y ago
  Are you still looking for a PDF?
  - krrishd 8y ago
    Wasn’t able to find one :/
    - david_at 8y ago
      Go here https://www.web2pdfconvert.com/ https://www.web2pdfconvert.com/ Copy the url ( https://www.grassland.network https://www.grassland.network )into the form field and click "Convert to PDF"
- david_at 8y ago
  I didn't have a name for the type of software that Grassland is and that's why the first sentence on the site is so long. I'd never heard of this "Mirror World" concept before but the similarities are surprising now that I've read a bit about it. I've added it into the description as "A world mirroring system..."
  - david_at 8y ago
    On second thought. The man who coined the term seems like he's got some uhmm... issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDfBLFyTBM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDfBLFyTBM4
pilooch 8y ago
Interesting project! You could run the neural networks directly on the pi. Expect 3 fps for object detection, try ncnn or deepdetect + ncnn for ease of use. That's without GPU. With a Jetson Nano expect up to 50 fps. You could detect more classes as well, as needed.
darkpicnic 8y ago
The opening description has to be the most informative, amazing run-on sentence I've ever seen.
- david_at 8y ago
  I'm going to screenshot this comment and send it to my high school English teacher.
bjelkeman-again 8y ago
The video isn’t viewable on an Ipad.
- david_at 8y ago
  Sorry, I'm going to change the video format later. Maybe a GIF or something. But I don't want to touch it now while so many people are looking at it just in case I mess things up. I've uploaded the two of them to Gyfcat for now. Let me know if that works for you https://gfycat.com/BigGraveCricket https://gfycat.com/BigGraveCricket https://gfycat.com/EqualGreatDarklingbeetle https://gfycat.com/EqualGreatDarklingbeetle
  - bjelkeman-again 8y ago
    Thanks. That worked.
jaredmsmith 8y ago
This is truly interesting, but from a privacy perspective if mass adoption actually occurred, extremely worrying. Not “inverse surveillance” as stated, but just surveillance in the hands of people. At mass deployment, mass surveillance accessible by anyone. Since when does that protect anyone’s privacy?
- david_at 8y ago
  The true problem with surveillance is the asymmetry of it all. Grassland uses Game Theory to remove that asymmetry. "...no party could maintain a parasitical, data gathering asymmetry (one-sided surveillance) so long as there are other parties acting in their own self interest. A 'scorched earth policy'". It answers the question, who's watching the watchers? Everyone. And the network itself is paying them to do it. > ...extremely worrying. It seems to me this forces people into Nash Equilibrium. Say I now know everything about you and vice-versa and anything we do to each other would be broadcast around the world for all to see and irrevocably encrypted in a worldwide database. And since "...all nodes are anonymous, if it's computationally improbable to be sure of the identity and intentions of all parties who may end up with the data, then all parties are compelled to expand node territory for their own self interest and eschew behaviour leading to M.A.D. outcomes" > Since when does that protect anyone’s privacy? It doesn't. And it doesn't care. I don't mean to sound rude but you'll have to throw away this veneration of privacy to grasp what this is really about; like esteeming the Divine Right of Kings, that's not going to work any more. People are fighting over the right to keep riding this precious dead horse while corporations and governments are riding over them in AI Ferraris because they know that the ones who'll will win are those who privately control the most data to train machines to do, well... everything that a human can do and more. They don't care about your privacy. It's long gone and turned into glue. People want to believe in it but it's dead. And the longer people think it's still out there somewhere waiting for them, the longer it'll take them to grasp the power that data affords any party that disregards that belief. Then one day they'll wake up and realize all their land is in the hands of the Conquistadors.
  - atoav 8y ago
    But isn’t balance here mostly about a balance of power? And isn’t a balance of power in terms of surveillance more than just a balance of information? In a transparent society the most powerful will still find their ways to be less transparent than everyone else, while leveraging this difference in transparency to the maximum extent possible. Information alone is not power. It is also about the ability to act on it, to use or abuse it.
coldacid 8y ago
Quite amused to see that Presto card! Always great to see something done here in Ontario. On the other hand, the privacy/security implications of this are very frightening.
- david_at 8y ago
  :) You know I heard saying once. I think it goes something like this, "Every mathematician receives their best ideas in the three 'B's. 'Bed', 'Bath' and 'Bus'"
dgellow 8y ago
That sounds really terrible from a privacy point of view. That reminds me of the technology SeeChange at the core of the dystopian novel The Circle.
- david_at 8y ago
  Please see my answer to jaredmsmith -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19532560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19532560 In addition to that, and I'm going to approach this delicately because some people are uncomfortable with facing this fact. But since you're on here I'm sure you know this. If you have a cell phone, used a credit reporting agency (Equifax?) or used almost any website in the past 10 years, you're already being tracked and your data has already been stolen in, on average, one data breach a month to advertise or politically manipulate you. The horse has already left the barn. Your life is right now being sold and resold every millisecond. But I'm doing you a favour. Because I'm giving your life away for free. And that data is freely disseminated to everyone not just because it stands as unassailable proof an AI performed a difficult computation on human behaviour and earned those coins but because it's important that everyone knows the truth about events in the natural world for science, democracy, health, justice and all rational decision making. An embargo on stupidity and ignorance in that node's corner of the world at least. Advantage must then come from helpful innovation not parasites rent seeking on people's data.
  - cmroanirgo 8y ago
    To keep up with your analogy: I'm here mending the fences of my farm to keep the horses from running, and you are using a bolt cutter on my gates. It's without my permission, and goes directly against my wishes. Some of us are still actively working on making the world a secure place. It can be done... but not with a project like this. It certainly doesn't help that this style of thinking plays right into the Mr Zuckerberg's hands. > But I'm doing you a favour. Because I'm giving your life away for free. I think I'm going to be sick...
  - GordonS 8y ago
    You're obviously a very intelligent and talented individual to have created this, frankly amazing, system, and to articulate your reasons for doing so. But I fundamentally disagree with the notion of total surveillance as a remedy to asymmetric surveillance. You obviously think this would benefit the world, but the endgame looks like a dystopian nightmare to me. I really wish you would have used your talents for "good rather than evil", looking at ways to prevent surveillance rather than increase it.
70122-_6 8y ago
needs an odroid, tudder extension completing.
warent 8y ago
I agree there are a lot of privacy concerns here, but isn't this what governments and mega-corporations are already doing? This way at least the data will be accessible to more than just privileged groups. Furthermore, it seems reasonable to hypothesize that this could add a whole new depth to the market of privacy and security. If this "Grassland" became the norm, then privacy concerns would be less niche, the effectiveness of our privacy efforts would be more obvious as we would have immediate feedback, and it would, therefore, be easier to ensure we're maintaining privacy from governments/corps (or anyone else for that matter). So rather than reflexively lashing out at this as a "scary threat to privacy" maybe this is actually a counter-intuitive evolution to enhanced privacy and connectivity.
- chris1993 8y ago
  At least there are some limits to the use of the data when it is restricted to a few elites. When any loony or malcontent can use it then it just makes things much worse for those at the bottom of the heap.
  - david_at 8y ago
    You're looking at something and calling it 'surveillance' because you don't yet have a word to describe the entire thing. It's too new so you see it through your 'old eyes'. You noticed there was a camera involved and you knew what that was so you ran with it. It's the proverbial blind man whose hand has happened to land on the tusk and he tells his companions, "It's a spear!". You're not seeing the whole elephant because you've never seen one. It benefits you when other people have knowledge about the world. It benefits you if other people have the knowledge to drive safely. It benefits you that your neighbours have a basic knowledge of germ theory and don't throw their sewage in the streets like medieval peasants. It benefits you that your fellow voters have at least a basic education and can make somewhat informed decisions. It benefits you that medical knowledge isn't locked away in some vault in Alexandria but it's in the mind of the doctor whose preventing an outbreak of some disease you happen to be susceptible to. Did you not read the things I was able to learn just from my first node? We can give so many people free access to information that would push back darkness, fear and superstition just a little further. And these people would do and build things that would make your life better. So instead of channelling the Archbishop of Canterbury telling Bible translator John Wycliffe that too much knowledge will corrupt the commoners, open your eyes.
whatshisface 8y ago
Future generations will look upon this like we look upon the guy who disassembled a bunch of smoke detectors in order to turn his back yard into a radioactive superfund site.
Mizza 8y ago
Love it love it love it. Can it work with existing public webcams? I'd love to track the comings and goings of every politician in Washington.
- david_at 8y ago
  I'm glad you like it. Yes it can :) Keep in mind it's still beta. There's still more work that needs to be done. But if you have any questions just open up an issue on github or email me. My email is on the bottom of the website.
rboyd 8y ago
It says "successfully submitting fake data in the network is so computationally intractable that any self-interested node would find it more profitable to be honest", but that doesn't sound quite right. I see the diagram and how it should enforce that the input frame is valid wrt the hidden layer, but it seems I could generate a fake overlay animation (for n POVs) and superimpose it over (or object detect and scrub it from) the input frame sequence.
- david_at 8y ago
  You'd have to do this repeatedly. Many times a second. And you could have to always have a different one each time. And you'd still have to hash the hidden layer so you're still spending money. And you'd still have to make sure your objects didn't behave on the map in a funny way. They couldn't walk through walls or fly off into space. Or walk into the ground. Because other nodes will see that. It'd too difficult to maintain over time.
  - rboyd 8y ago
    But I'm speaking to the set of cases where there is some external economic incentive (outside of the crypto token value) to either incriminate or exonerate some actor's behavior. I think the scrubbing/exoneration scenario is straightforward, and the physical anomalies you mention (for the incriminate overlay attack) would be handled by CG or 1:1 offline model recording. Maybe the network needs to report on cases where sensors disagree and visualize/surface these n different versions of history. Any thoughts on leveraging something like Golem for the compute and Streamr or Erasure for the payment/sponsorship?
    - david_at 8y ago
      > I think the scrubbing/exoneration scenario is straightforward, and the physical anomalies you mention (for the incriminate overlay attack) would be handled by CG or 1:1 offline model recording. You could but it would take a lot of effort even if you just wanted to scrub the data of one. You'd also have to know what you're about to scrub before you even do it. You'd also have to make sure there weren't other nodes around too. Keep in mind, every few months the power requirements of the models increase. The next model will have semantic segmentation (https://medium.com/nanonets/how-to-do-image-segmentation-using-deep-learning-c673cc5862ef https://medium.com/nanonets/how-to-do-image-segmentation-usi...) so by Eon 1 things are going to be much, much harder to fake than Eon 0, which we're at now. I'll admit, it's never going to be perfect. But as you mentioned, we can find ways to make it better. But one thing I believe we can guarantee mathematically is that if someone's going to make an attempt to submit fake data into the Merkle Tree, we're going to make them have to pay out the nose just to attempt it. So they have to have a lot of resources at their disposal. But in the end, they're also involved in raising the value of Grassland's currency for everyone else. Because they're funnelling more compute costs into the system, trading their money for Grassland's coin. So everyone else in the network is, in a certain sense, rewarded from the penalty extracted from the attacker's dishonesty. > Maybe the network needs to report on cases where sensors disagree and visualize/surface these n different versions of history. Yes, I'll think about this... Do you have further thoughts on this? > Any thoughts on leveraging something like Golem for the compute and Streamr or Erasure for the payment/sponsorship? I don't really know much about them. Most of the 'blockchain' stuff out there seems quite overly complicated to me and I'm not sure what they even do to be honest (Not to disparage these systems in particular. I think I've only ever heard of Golem before. And the other two I've never heard of). But I'd rather work with systems that I know and aren't going to be changed from under me because of the whims of some other dev team. And Grassland has quite a unique problem space so it was necessary to build the system from the ground up so I know exactly what each piece is doing and what it could potentially do because I don't put in any more code than I need to.
aboutruby 8y ago
Wouldn't most of those use cases be illegal? For instance tracking license plates of cars is already illegal as far as I know.
- howard941 8y ago
  Where is gait identification or license plate tracking illegal? If you're visible to the naked eye from a public space in the US it wouldn't be a bad idea to expect it.
  - canofbars 8y ago
    Because laws are able to make these distinctions that seem arbitrary when broken down. "How can child porn be illegal when its just ones and zeros on a magnetic disc" "How can harassment be illegal, if you are in a public place you should expect words in the form of sound waves to enter your ears"
    - howard941 8y ago
      I condemn child porn and verbal abuse. Have you no shame?
JonathonSwift 8y ago
I really wanted to see the words “modest proposal” somewhere on that page. Nothing to hide nothing to fear, eh?
chris1993 8y ago
It seems technically interesting but societally problematic. For example it appears to greatly simplify stalking and harassment. How can a domestic violence victim avoid their attacker if their movements are so easily monitored? Perhaps use this to identify people walking away from a gay bar or a political meeting to set up a bashing? Note when somebody leaves home in order to rob their place? And bear in mind that for some individuals the cost of being identified back won't outweigh the value in being able to locate their victim.
- david_at 8y ago
  The situation you're describing means you can know exactly what your stalker/harasser's routine is too. You can also prove undeniably that they are a stalker or harasser. In fact, Grassland will be watching them even when you can't. It can make statistical predictions to you about when they sleep, where they work, where they're going to be at 11 tomorrow etc etc. It's a two way stalker street.
  - chris1993 8y ago
    Yes, but you don't know your stalker exists until you are attacked and perhaps they just don't care if their routine is known. Consider that your stalker/attacker may enjoy the power of forcing you to monitor them back. So now we have a new avenue for trolling. The system as described empowers the obsessive aggressor far more than improving the lives of people who don't care to focus on the minutiae of the lives of others.
    - netsharc 8y ago
      To join the hypothetical, I'd imagine you can deploy AI/ML to try to avoid your stalker(s). Google Assistant already tells you when to leave for work and which route to take, imagine having it vary the time and the route to avoid stalkers it has noticed from the data it gathered. But then the stalkers would also have the same system to try to figure out what your digital bodyguard recommended to you.
      - 8y ago
Ozzie_osman 8y ago
One interesting tweak you could consider, don't know if it's possible: it would be great if everyone could see logs of access as well. If everyone is giving up privacy symmetrically, it might be an interesting dynamic if everyone can also see who accessed their information (or, if it's anonymous, simply know that someone accessed it).
vessenes 8y ago
Hi David, I posted an issue on GitHub with a few questions, but I have one better asked here: what’s with your license? I think I understand it generally in that it looks like you want the right to harass people who integrate grassland with social media; but what is the Deep Paranoia text generation thing you refer to? And can you talk about how your group theory link relates to the project?
- rhcom2 8y ago
  > Any abuse of this software and/or algorithm(s) evinced by parties engaged in violation of this Agreement, if discovered will be taken as aknowledgement, consent and agreement by those parties to allow any member of the Grassland community to attempt to seek out and identify such parties in order to target and generate any digital news, social media content or other types of information that the household and/or family of the members of such parties may consume using the 'Deep Schizophrenia' narrative It reads like, "if you break this license, we'll dox you and your family"
  - garmaine 8y ago
    Wow, wtf.
    - crooked-v 8y ago
      I'm getting some TempleOS vibes here.
      - AceJohnny2 8y ago
        You and me both.
        david_at 8y ago
        As I stated to the parent comment, I didn't mean to offend. My choice of words could use some improvement. Here's further explanation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19537047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19537047
madhadron 8y ago
Neural networks plus proof of work is interesting, but there is one, foundational problem: cryptocurrencies have no particular value. Bitcoin has a bubble of people who held a particular ideology and didn't understand currency, and folks who needed money laundering took advantage of that. Without a similar bubble, it's hard to convince someone to give you a currency that you can, say, pay taxes with in exchange for some numbers that you can prove were hard to calculate. Beyond that, it's pretty straightforward to shut down. If a municipality decides it doesn't like this, you pass a law against it. You can't fully anonymize sparse nodes because the appearance and disappearance of objects under various situations lets you pinpoint where it is and either send the police up to break it or give the company running the poorly secured security camera an injunction to fix it.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > Bitcoin has a bubble of people who held a particular ideology and didn't understand currency, and folks who needed money laundering took advantage of that. I'm pretty sure that the Bitcoin ideology specifically seeks to enable money laundering. It's not like people who needed money laundering took advantage of a design flaw; the point is to let people launder money.
  - hnuser123456 8y ago
    The point is it's magic internet money, the fans don't really care what you do with it.
  - arisAlexis 8y ago
    actually all money transacted is transparent because the blockchain is public domain. What is used for money laundering is dollars. It's a common fallacy that there is a lot of money laundering with Bitcoin disproved by EU studies (google them).
sibeshk96 8y ago
Kudos for the concept. Intriguing form of counter-surveillance that could actually work in a lot of existing surveillance states. Had a few questions : 1. Who in the system is responsible for maintaining and updating the object detection model? It seems like a centralized point of failure for an otherwise decentralized system. Might want to check out existing techniques for Federated Learning for ways to counter this. (https://www.openmined.org/ https://www.openmined.org/) 2. How possible is it to mount a Sybil attack on this system? Why did you select PoW considering it's weaknesses? One possible problem could be that early adopters will necessarily have to be co-located for the system to have any value(Hence consolidating value in a certain geographical area, making it very easy to regulate/shut-down).
- david_at 8y ago
  1) Yeah, I'm not sure how Federated Learning would solve the problem. Federated learning still requires someone to decide on a single model and it's still trained under the coordination of a central server[1]. And how do you ensure the data people are giving the model is good? You need some sort of scheme to determine that. So how do you decide on the scheme? Decentralization? Isn't this decentralised-turtles all the way down? 2) I'll explain in detail how it prevents Sybil attacks later. But It involves signing all the tracklets and digest tuples (see website) as well as a sort of Russian Nesting Doll of hashes. PoW is the only viable one we have. I like to use systems that are battle tested. I don't know what you mean by PoW weaknesses. Could you clarify? You don't need to co-locate. Read what I learned about my neighbourhood with just one node under "Use Cases" on the site. As to people shutting it down, I have clearly delineated on the site's front page what my theorem predicts will happen if they do. They're handing data, unprecedented knowledge of human behaviour and AI dominance to those who don't. So yeah, shut it down. Fill your boots, mate...(https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif?noredirect https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif?noredirect). [1] https://towardsdatascience.com/whats-new-in-deep-learning-research-understanding-federated-learning-b14e7c3c6f89 https://towardsdatascience.com/whats-new-in-deep-learning-re...
darepublic 8y ago
Interesting idea to create a currency of proof of work for a task of intrinsic value. I had thought about creating a currency around making successful predictions, some computational activity that is not random but has some demonstrated value.
Kip9000 8y ago
This is incredibly interesting! Real time simulation at scale!!
endofwatch 8y ago
The one saving grace of such a system is that it should make it trivially easy to identify who is running these nodes, so that they can be forcibly ejected from your community.
- david_at 8y ago
  Grassland software is just the proof of a theorem whose 3 postulates/axioms I clearly outline on the front page of the site. My theorem predicts that a population that shuts it down is just concentrating cryptographic money and an AI with perpetually increasing and unparalleled knowledge of human behaviour into the hands of those that don't. In short, the rest of the world would react with -> https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif
arisAlexis 8y ago
this is a prime example of what blockchain can do

184 points by david_at 8y ago

webdva 8y ago

Wow, very cool and inspiring stuff.

david_at 8y ago
Thank you. Much appreciated :)

sdan 8y ago

Can you put this on a car to get a full 360 view of what's going on?

david_at 8y ago
Unfortunately, no. Not at this time. Your node calibrates itself and interprets what it sees in each 2D video frame into the real 3D world by 'knowing' where its 'virtual self' is placed in the 3D map of the real world that you'll find in the GUI. When you set up your node, you have to do set this calibration once, manually using the GUI and its accuracy in space is down to half a centimetre on the earth's surface and its accuracy in time is down to a millisecond. If it was on the top of the car, the node would have to be constantly updated automatically. But GPS is no where near that accurate. I guess you could use a combination involving LIDAR to constantly tell the node where it is so the car's position is updated in Grassland. But it would make more computational/economic sense for the government and economically self-interested citizens (interested in mining Grassland's coin) to line the streets with ip cameras which grassland nodes can read from to analyze and broadcast car and pedestrian locations/speed etc. etc. millisecond by millisecond. Which self driving cars could pick up and 'know' everything going on around them even things they can't 'see' themselves.
- raidicy 8y ago
  What's stopping me from finding all the unsecured IP cameras in my city and using them to "mine" data? Further, if I could do that what's stopping others from reusing the nodes that I set up?
  - david_at 8y ago
    > What's stopping me from finding all the unsecured IP cameras in my city and using them to "mine" data? Absolutely nothing. > Further, if I could do that what's stopping others from reusing the nodes that I set up? Right now, nothing. Nodes could overlap other nodes. But they're still using compute cycles so they're still spending money. The only issue is, who gets theirs into the tree first. And if the hash is the same, you better be first or you're just wasting time. Keep in mind, I've still got a lot of work to do. And until today, I've been working on this by myself. And pretty much since last summer. You can see the list of tasks that I need to complete on the site under "Beta Version".
    - raidicy 8y ago
      Thanks for answering my question. And I want to say I appreciate what you're doing. Information is power and it's being leveraged against individuals practically unchecked. If I had to guess some state actor would have come up with (or already has) with a technology like this eventually. Everything in that system would be kept private and be leveraged against the individual without consent. Tools would be built with it that contain their own biases and uses. The appeal of using this system against others would be too great, either for those in power or those who seek to sell the ability. For that reason I like the ubiquitous access _everyone_ would have. Distributing this to everyone reminds me of the end of "The Stars My Destination" To continue with my original question though; I'm guessing whatever system has faster compute cycles will win the race of who hashes first? Will you be able to tell who's hash gets there first
      - david_at 8y ago
        > I'm guessing whatever system has faster compute cycles will win the race of who hashes first? Will you be able to tell who's hash gets there first Yes, but it's not just about hashing power though. And there's no nonce like Bitcoin. It's mostly about deep learning inference power. You can see the process described on the website under "Unrewriteable History And Reasonable Storage Requirements" (though I'll probably change that title soon and call it "[something] Merkle Tree"). I've copied the last bullet point here... * The process of producing the next Merkle Tree is a competition any node can compete in. A person who cultivates real trees is an Arborist so we'll use that term. Our "arborists" will also need to perform inference on the frames that were randomly selected for evaluation based on the last Merkle root, and will need to publish each frame's digest tuple and the "reserved digest" (see diagram). If the original node holding the reserved digest signs the arborist's digest, it generates that node's reward coins and a percentage goes to the arborist. But that will only propogate if that arborist's tree is also accepted by a majority of the network. Therefore, as long as (1) there is always active competition to compute the Merkle Tree by statistically verifying the work of all other nodes and (2) over 50% of every active node prevents inflation of the money supply by rejecting trees that don't pass their proof-of-work, then all rational (self-interested) nodes will have to be honest.
- lovich 8y ago
  If the accuracy is down to half a centimeter , this is something that would need to be re-calibrated several times a year. The tectonic plates move over 1 cm per year, and any type of earthquake can shift land by significantly more than a half centimeter

rosstex 8y ago

What are the privacy implications of such a system?

traderjane 8y ago
It may allow organizations and governments to hold each other accountable, because generally there's an inappropriate coordination or centralization of the data-gathering machinery and the political/financial machinery. As for privacy, I think it will serve to add more players to the data game, balancing the powers.
- rosstex 8y ago
  Sorry, let me just list the first use case: "A citizen... who wants to know what any citizen... is doing at this moment or has ever done before" uh
  - grenoire 8y ago
    I thought I was just tripping when I read that line. The whole thing is eerie as fuck.
  - usrusr 8y ago
    More power to those who have the resources to get the digging done for them. Even with a perfect AI interface, you could only ask "Alexa" so many questions in 24 hours. Lowly individuals would gain absolutely nothing, they have better things to do than sniffing each other's data trails. That investment of time would in the overwhelming majority only be worthwhile for malicious use cases. Even in the simple stalker/stalker evasion scenario: the stalker would enjoy digging into the data, but for the stalkee, keeping track of the stalker for avoidance would be a terrible chore.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  As for privacy, I think it will serve to add more players to the data game, balancing the powers. Until Facebook and Google each order seven million of them and place them all over town to monitor your personal activities, even when you're offline.

krrishd 8y ago

Looking for a link to the PDF of it, but I’m reminded of David’s Gelernter’s “Mirror World” [0] concept from the 1990s, was lucky enough to encounter it in one of my classes. Hadn’t thought of the proposal as more than sci-fi but here we are :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_world

david_at 8y ago
Are you still looking for a PDF?
- krrishd 8y ago
  Wasn’t able to find one :/
  - david_at 8y ago
    Go here https://www.web2pdfconvert.com/ https://www.web2pdfconvert.com/ Copy the url ( https://www.grassland.network https://www.grassland.network )into the form field and click "Convert to PDF"
david_at 8y ago
I didn't have a name for the type of software that Grassland is and that's why the first sentence on the site is so long. I'd never heard of this "Mirror World" concept before but the similarities are surprising now that I've read a bit about it. I've added it into the description as "A world mirroring system..."
- david_at 8y ago
  On second thought. The man who coined the term seems like he's got some uhmm... issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDfBLFyTBM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDfBLFyTBM4

pilooch 8y ago

Interesting project! You could run the neural networks directly on the pi. Expect 3 fps for object detection, try ncnn or deepdetect + ncnn for ease of use. That's without GPU. With a Jetson Nano expect up to 50 fps. You could detect more classes as well, as needed.

darkpicnic 8y ago

The opening description has to be the most informative, amazing run-on sentence I've ever seen.

david_at 8y ago
I'm going to screenshot this comment and send it to my high school English teacher.

bjelkeman-again 8y ago

The video isn’t viewable on an Ipad.

david_at 8y ago
Sorry, I'm going to change the video format later. Maybe a GIF or something. But I don't want to touch it now while so many people are looking at it just in case I mess things up. I've uploaded the two of them to Gyfcat for now. Let me know if that works for you https://gfycat.com/BigGraveCricket https://gfycat.com/BigGraveCricket https://gfycat.com/EqualGreatDarklingbeetle https://gfycat.com/EqualGreatDarklingbeetle
- bjelkeman-again 8y ago
  Thanks. That worked.

jaredmsmith 8y ago

This is truly interesting, but from a privacy perspective if mass adoption actually occurred, extremely worrying. Not “inverse surveillance” as stated, but just surveillance in the hands of people. At mass deployment, mass surveillance accessible by anyone. Since when does that protect anyone’s privacy?

david_at 8y ago
The true problem with surveillance is the asymmetry of it all. Grassland uses Game Theory to remove that asymmetry. "...no party could maintain a parasitical, data gathering asymmetry (one-sided surveillance) so long as there are other parties acting in their own self interest. A 'scorched earth policy'". It answers the question, who's watching the watchers? Everyone. And the network itself is paying them to do it. > ...extremely worrying. It seems to me this forces people into Nash Equilibrium. Say I now know everything about you and vice-versa and anything we do to each other would be broadcast around the world for all to see and irrevocably encrypted in a worldwide database. And since "...all nodes are anonymous, if it's computationally improbable to be sure of the identity and intentions of all parties who may end up with the data, then all parties are compelled to expand node territory for their own self interest and eschew behaviour leading to M.A.D. outcomes" > Since when does that protect anyone’s privacy? It doesn't. And it doesn't care. I don't mean to sound rude but you'll have to throw away this veneration of privacy to grasp what this is really about; like esteeming the Divine Right of Kings, that's not going to work any more. People are fighting over the right to keep riding this precious dead horse while corporations and governments are riding over them in AI Ferraris because they know that the ones who'll will win are those who privately control the most data to train machines to do, well... everything that a human can do and more. They don't care about your privacy. It's long gone and turned into glue. People want to believe in it but it's dead. And the longer people think it's still out there somewhere waiting for them, the longer it'll take them to grasp the power that data affords any party that disregards that belief. Then one day they'll wake up and realize all their land is in the hands of the Conquistadors.
- atoav 8y ago
  But isn’t balance here mostly about a balance of power? And isn’t a balance of power in terms of surveillance more than just a balance of information? In a transparent society the most powerful will still find their ways to be less transparent than everyone else, while leveraging this difference in transparency to the maximum extent possible. Information alone is not power. It is also about the ability to act on it, to use or abuse it.

coldacid 8y ago

Quite amused to see that Presto card! Always great to see something done here in Ontario. On the other hand, the privacy/security implications of this are very frightening.

david_at 8y ago
:) You know I heard saying once. I think it goes something like this, "Every mathematician receives their best ideas in the three 'B's. 'Bed', 'Bath' and 'Bus'"

dgellow 8y ago

That sounds really terrible from a privacy point of view. That reminds me of the technology SeeChange at the core of the dystopian novel The Circle.

david_at 8y ago
Please see my answer to jaredmsmith -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19532560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19532560 In addition to that, and I'm going to approach this delicately because some people are uncomfortable with facing this fact. But since you're on here I'm sure you know this. If you have a cell phone, used a credit reporting agency (Equifax?) or used almost any website in the past 10 years, you're already being tracked and your data has already been stolen in, on average, one data breach a month to advertise or politically manipulate you. The horse has already left the barn. Your life is right now being sold and resold every millisecond. But I'm doing you a favour. Because I'm giving your life away for free. And that data is freely disseminated to everyone not just because it stands as unassailable proof an AI performed a difficult computation on human behaviour and earned those coins but because it's important that everyone knows the truth about events in the natural world for science, democracy, health, justice and all rational decision making. An embargo on stupidity and ignorance in that node's corner of the world at least. Advantage must then come from helpful innovation not parasites rent seeking on people's data.
- cmroanirgo 8y ago
  To keep up with your analogy: I'm here mending the fences of my farm to keep the horses from running, and you are using a bolt cutter on my gates. It's without my permission, and goes directly against my wishes. Some of us are still actively working on making the world a secure place. It can be done... but not with a project like this. It certainly doesn't help that this style of thinking plays right into the Mr Zuckerberg's hands. > But I'm doing you a favour. Because I'm giving your life away for free. I think I'm going to be sick...
- GordonS 8y ago
  You're obviously a very intelligent and talented individual to have created this, frankly amazing, system, and to articulate your reasons for doing so. But I fundamentally disagree with the notion of total surveillance as a remedy to asymmetric surveillance. You obviously think this would benefit the world, but the endgame looks like a dystopian nightmare to me. I really wish you would have used your talents for "good rather than evil", looking at ways to prevent surveillance rather than increase it.

70122-_6 8y ago

needs an odroid, tudder extension completing.

warent 8y ago

I agree there are a lot of privacy concerns here, but isn't this what governments and mega-corporations are already doing? This way at least the data will be accessible to more than just privileged groups. Furthermore, it seems reasonable to hypothesize that this could add a whole new depth to the market of privacy and security. If this "Grassland" became the norm, then privacy concerns would be less niche, the effectiveness of our privacy efforts would be more obvious as we would have immediate feedback, and it would, therefore, be easier to ensure we're maintaining privacy from governments/corps (or anyone else for that matter). So rather than reflexively lashing out at this as a "scary threat to privacy" maybe this is actually a counter-intuitive evolution to enhanced privacy and connectivity.

chris1993 8y ago
At least there are some limits to the use of the data when it is restricted to a few elites. When any loony or malcontent can use it then it just makes things much worse for those at the bottom of the heap.
- david_at 8y ago
  You're looking at something and calling it 'surveillance' because you don't yet have a word to describe the entire thing. It's too new so you see it through your 'old eyes'. You noticed there was a camera involved and you knew what that was so you ran with it. It's the proverbial blind man whose hand has happened to land on the tusk and he tells his companions, "It's a spear!". You're not seeing the whole elephant because you've never seen one. It benefits you when other people have knowledge about the world. It benefits you if other people have the knowledge to drive safely. It benefits you that your neighbours have a basic knowledge of germ theory and don't throw their sewage in the streets like medieval peasants. It benefits you that your fellow voters have at least a basic education and can make somewhat informed decisions. It benefits you that medical knowledge isn't locked away in some vault in Alexandria but it's in the mind of the doctor whose preventing an outbreak of some disease you happen to be susceptible to. Did you not read the things I was able to learn just from my first node? We can give so many people free access to information that would push back darkness, fear and superstition just a little further. And these people would do and build things that would make your life better. So instead of channelling the Archbishop of Canterbury telling Bible translator John Wycliffe that too much knowledge will corrupt the commoners, open your eyes.

whatshisface 8y ago

Future generations will look upon this like we look upon the guy who disassembled a bunch of smoke detectors in order to turn his back yard into a radioactive superfund site.

Mizza 8y ago

Love it love it love it. Can it work with existing public webcams? I'd love to track the comings and goings of every politician in Washington.

david_at 8y ago
I'm glad you like it. Yes it can :) Keep in mind it's still beta. There's still more work that needs to be done. But if you have any questions just open up an issue on github or email me. My email is on the bottom of the website.

rboyd 8y ago

It says "successfully submitting fake data in the network is so computationally intractable that any self-interested node would find it more profitable to be honest", but that doesn't sound quite right. I see the diagram and how it should enforce that the input frame is valid wrt the hidden layer, but it seems I could generate a fake overlay animation (for n POVs) and superimpose it over (or object detect and scrub it from) the input frame sequence.

david_at 8y ago
You'd have to do this repeatedly. Many times a second. And you could have to always have a different one each time. And you'd still have to hash the hidden layer so you're still spending money. And you'd still have to make sure your objects didn't behave on the map in a funny way. They couldn't walk through walls or fly off into space. Or walk into the ground. Because other nodes will see that. It'd too difficult to maintain over time.
- rboyd 8y ago
  But I'm speaking to the set of cases where there is some external economic incentive (outside of the crypto token value) to either incriminate or exonerate some actor's behavior. I think the scrubbing/exoneration scenario is straightforward, and the physical anomalies you mention (for the incriminate overlay attack) would be handled by CG or 1:1 offline model recording. Maybe the network needs to report on cases where sensors disagree and visualize/surface these n different versions of history. Any thoughts on leveraging something like Golem for the compute and Streamr or Erasure for the payment/sponsorship?
  - david_at 8y ago
    > I think the scrubbing/exoneration scenario is straightforward, and the physical anomalies you mention (for the incriminate overlay attack) would be handled by CG or 1:1 offline model recording. You could but it would take a lot of effort even if you just wanted to scrub the data of one. You'd also have to know what you're about to scrub before you even do it. You'd also have to make sure there weren't other nodes around too. Keep in mind, every few months the power requirements of the models increase. The next model will have semantic segmentation (https://medium.com/nanonets/how-to-do-image-segmentation-using-deep-learning-c673cc5862ef https://medium.com/nanonets/how-to-do-image-segmentation-usi...) so by Eon 1 things are going to be much, much harder to fake than Eon 0, which we're at now. I'll admit, it's never going to be perfect. But as you mentioned, we can find ways to make it better. But one thing I believe we can guarantee mathematically is that if someone's going to make an attempt to submit fake data into the Merkle Tree, we're going to make them have to pay out the nose just to attempt it. So they have to have a lot of resources at their disposal. But in the end, they're also involved in raising the value of Grassland's currency for everyone else. Because they're funnelling more compute costs into the system, trading their money for Grassland's coin. So everyone else in the network is, in a certain sense, rewarded from the penalty extracted from the attacker's dishonesty. > Maybe the network needs to report on cases where sensors disagree and visualize/surface these n different versions of history. Yes, I'll think about this... Do you have further thoughts on this? > Any thoughts on leveraging something like Golem for the compute and Streamr or Erasure for the payment/sponsorship? I don't really know much about them. Most of the 'blockchain' stuff out there seems quite overly complicated to me and I'm not sure what they even do to be honest (Not to disparage these systems in particular. I think I've only ever heard of Golem before. And the other two I've never heard of). But I'd rather work with systems that I know and aren't going to be changed from under me because of the whims of some other dev team. And Grassland has quite a unique problem space so it was necessary to build the system from the ground up so I know exactly what each piece is doing and what it could potentially do because I don't put in any more code than I need to.

aboutruby 8y ago

Wouldn't most of those use cases be illegal? For instance tracking license plates of cars is already illegal as far as I know.

howard941 8y ago
Where is gait identification or license plate tracking illegal? If you're visible to the naked eye from a public space in the US it wouldn't be a bad idea to expect it.
- canofbars 8y ago
  Because laws are able to make these distinctions that seem arbitrary when broken down. "How can child porn be illegal when its just ones and zeros on a magnetic disc" "How can harassment be illegal, if you are in a public place you should expect words in the form of sound waves to enter your ears"
  - howard941 8y ago
    I condemn child porn and verbal abuse. Have you no shame?

JonathonSwift 8y ago

I really wanted to see the words “modest proposal” somewhere on that page. Nothing to hide nothing to fear, eh?

chris1993 8y ago

It seems technically interesting but societally problematic. For example it appears to greatly simplify stalking and harassment. How can a domestic violence victim avoid their attacker if their movements are so easily monitored? Perhaps use this to identify people walking away from a gay bar or a political meeting to set up a bashing? Note when somebody leaves home in order to rob their place? And bear in mind that for some individuals the cost of being identified back won't outweigh the value in being able to locate their victim.

david_at 8y ago
The situation you're describing means you can know exactly what your stalker/harasser's routine is too. You can also prove undeniably that they are a stalker or harasser. In fact, Grassland will be watching them even when you can't. It can make statistical predictions to you about when they sleep, where they work, where they're going to be at 11 tomorrow etc etc. It's a two way stalker street.
- chris1993 8y ago
  Yes, but you don't know your stalker exists until you are attacked and perhaps they just don't care if their routine is known. Consider that your stalker/attacker may enjoy the power of forcing you to monitor them back. So now we have a new avenue for trolling. The system as described empowers the obsessive aggressor far more than improving the lives of people who don't care to focus on the minutiae of the lives of others.
  - netsharc 8y ago
    To join the hypothetical, I'd imagine you can deploy AI/ML to try to avoid your stalker(s). Google Assistant already tells you when to leave for work and which route to take, imagine having it vary the time and the route to avoid stalkers it has noticed from the data it gathered. But then the stalkers would also have the same system to try to figure out what your digital bodyguard recommended to you.
    - 8y ago

Ozzie_osman 8y ago

One interesting tweak you could consider, don't know if it's possible: it would be great if everyone could see logs of access as well. If everyone is giving up privacy symmetrically, it might be an interesting dynamic if everyone can also see who accessed their information (or, if it's anonymous, simply know that someone accessed it).

vessenes 8y ago

Hi David, I posted an issue on GitHub with a few questions, but I have one better asked here: what’s with your license? I think I understand it generally in that it looks like you want the right to harass people who integrate grassland with social media; but what is the Deep Paranoia text generation thing you refer to? And can you talk about how your group theory link relates to the project?

rhcom2 8y ago
> Any abuse of this software and/or algorithm(s) evinced by parties engaged in violation of this Agreement, if discovered will be taken as aknowledgement, consent and agreement by those parties to allow any member of the Grassland community to attempt to seek out and identify such parties in order to target and generate any digital news, social media content or other types of information that the household and/or family of the members of such parties may consume using the 'Deep Schizophrenia' narrative It reads like, "if you break this license, we'll dox you and your family"
- garmaine 8y ago
  Wow, wtf.
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    I'm getting some TempleOS vibes here.
    - AceJohnny2 8y ago
      You and me both.
      - david_at 8y ago
        As I stated to the parent comment, I didn't mean to offend. My choice of words could use some improvement. Here's further explanation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19537047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19537047

madhadron 8y ago

Neural networks plus proof of work is interesting, but there is one, foundational problem: cryptocurrencies have no particular value. Bitcoin has a bubble of people who held a particular ideology and didn't understand currency, and folks who needed money laundering took advantage of that. Without a similar bubble, it's hard to convince someone to give you a currency that you can, say, pay taxes with in exchange for some numbers that you can prove were hard to calculate. Beyond that, it's pretty straightforward to shut down. If a municipality decides it doesn't like this, you pass a law against it. You can't fully anonymize sparse nodes because the appearance and disappearance of objects under various situations lets you pinpoint where it is and either send the police up to break it or give the company running the poorly secured security camera an injunction to fix it.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> Bitcoin has a bubble of people who held a particular ideology and didn't understand currency, and folks who needed money laundering took advantage of that. I'm pretty sure that the Bitcoin ideology specifically seeks to enable money laundering. It's not like people who needed money laundering took advantage of a design flaw; the point is to let people launder money.
- hnuser123456 8y ago
  The point is it's magic internet money, the fans don't really care what you do with it.
- arisAlexis 8y ago
  actually all money transacted is transparent because the blockchain is public domain. What is used for money laundering is dollars. It's a common fallacy that there is a lot of money laundering with Bitcoin disproved by EU studies (google them).

sibeshk96 8y ago

Kudos for the concept. Intriguing form of counter-surveillance that could actually work in a lot of existing surveillance states. Had a few questions : 1. Who in the system is responsible for maintaining and updating the object detection model? It seems like a centralized point of failure for an otherwise decentralized system. Might want to check out existing techniques for Federated Learning for ways to counter this. (https://www.openmined.org/ https://www.openmined.org/) 2. How possible is it to mount a Sybil attack on this system? Why did you select PoW considering it's weaknesses? One possible problem could be that early adopters will necessarily have to be co-located for the system to have any value(Hence consolidating value in a certain geographical area, making it very easy to regulate/shut-down).

david_at 8y ago
1) Yeah, I'm not sure how Federated Learning would solve the problem. Federated learning still requires someone to decide on a single model and it's still trained under the coordination of a central server[1]. And how do you ensure the data people are giving the model is good? You need some sort of scheme to determine that. So how do you decide on the scheme? Decentralization? Isn't this decentralised-turtles all the way down? 2) I'll explain in detail how it prevents Sybil attacks later. But It involves signing all the tracklets and digest tuples (see website) as well as a sort of Russian Nesting Doll of hashes. PoW is the only viable one we have. I like to use systems that are battle tested. I don't know what you mean by PoW weaknesses. Could you clarify? You don't need to co-locate. Read what I learned about my neighbourhood with just one node under "Use Cases" on the site. As to people shutting it down, I have clearly delineated on the site's front page what my theorem predicts will happen if they do. They're handing data, unprecedented knowledge of human behaviour and AI dominance to those who don't. So yeah, shut it down. Fill your boots, mate...(https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif?noredirect https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif?noredirect). [1] https://towardsdatascience.com/whats-new-in-deep-learning-research-understanding-federated-learning-b14e7c3c6f89 https://towardsdatascience.com/whats-new-in-deep-learning-re...

darepublic 8y ago

Interesting idea to create a currency of proof of work for a task of intrinsic value. I had thought about creating a currency around making successful predictions, some computational activity that is not random but has some demonstrated value.

Kip9000 8y ago

This is incredibly interesting! Real time simulation at scale!!

endofwatch 8y ago

The one saving grace of such a system is that it should make it trivially easy to identify who is running these nodes, so that they can be forcibly ejected from your community.

david_at 8y ago
Grassland software is just the proof of a theorem whose 3 postulates/axioms I clearly outline on the front page of the site. My theorem predicts that a population that shuts it down is just concentrating cryptographic money and an AI with perpetually increasing and unparalleled knowledge of human behaviour into the hands of those that don't. In short, the rest of the world would react with -> https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif https://i.imgur.com/rDJWv5E.gif

arisAlexis 8y ago

this is a prime example of what blockchain can do