5 ms·

so hospitals can never use this? their doctors and nurses, who are "employees" regularily work 12 hour shifts. the same goes for first responders

by rbohac 8y ago

jimnotgym 8y ago
I hope so. Hospitals make their staff work counter-productive hours, as if they couldn't function with 8 hour shifts. And you don't need to put double quotes around employees. They are employees and deserve to work in a good environment like everyone else
- jimktrains2 8y ago
  While I'm not defending the schedules that hospital employees work, one thing to factor in is that every hand off can increase errors. (I wish I could find a paper, but I'm on mobile and not having luck.) However, yes, I do believe that multiple 12+ hour days in a row is ultimately counterproductive. Also, I wonder if overlapping shifts would reduce the chance of errors.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Those long shifts are there to protect patient safety - they reduce the number of dangerous handovers. Part of being a doctor or in something like the military is putting other people first rather than having a comfortable short day.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    What if handovers are dangerous in large part because the outgoing shift members are fatigued to the point of intoxication?
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      Take this for example - from the Guardian, a very left-wing newspaper that is normally about as far from arguing for longer hours for works as you can possibly get. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confidential-patient-care-study https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confiden... > The report suggests the shorter working week is responsible for a lack of continuity in out-of-hours care > shortening rota hours had led to more shift changes between medical teams and greater chances for mistakes to occur > the early effects of the 48-hour European working time limit on surgeons and found that these new rotas had almost entirely removed adequate time for handover of sick patients Also think about this - those doctors who don't do handovers, such as a dermatologist doing out-patient clinics, don't work long hours. Hospitals only do it where clinically required.
  - gus_massa 8y ago
    Handovers are dangerous, but making decisions that need your full attention after hard working 11:30 hours is also dangerous. And sometime doctors have even longer shifts. It's an insane culture. My guess is that it is easy to spot error in handovers (X didn't say/write this, Y didn't hear/read that). But errors due that you have worked 11:30 hours are more difficult to isolate.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      Why do you think the hospitals do long shifts then? Just for fun? They don't do it for people who aren't doing handovers, like general practitioners who can work half-days just a couple of times a week if they want, or administrations. So we know it isn't inherent for doctors or for the staffing of the hospital. Only for those doing handovers...
      - AlexCoventry 8y ago
        > Why do you think the hospitals do long shifts then? Just for fun? Because the culture of US medical training was initiated by a coke addict, and it's extremely conservative and slow-moving. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        But medical shifts are like this the world-over.
        AlexCoventry 8y ago
        Why do you believe that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours#EU_regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours#EU...
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        That’s exactly what I mean - cf https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confidential-patient-care-study https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confiden... In the UK they always worked long shifts because it’s safer. They’re trying to stop them, and it’s less safe. Why do you think the reason the UK has always worked long hours is due to a drug addiction in the US rather than experience in safety?
ilikehurdles 8y ago
Hospitals have some of the most toxic work cultures around. So much of that shit is perpetuated by senior level employees justifying hours that are harmful to patient care with “I went through it so why shouldn’t you?”
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

so hospitals can never use this? their doctors and nurses, who are "employees" regularily work 12 hour shifts. the same goes for first responders

by rbohac 8y ago

so hospitals can never use this? their doctors and nurses, who are "employees" regularily work 12 hour shifts. the same goes for first responders

jimnotgym 8y ago

I hope so. Hospitals make their staff work counter-productive hours, as if they couldn't function with 8 hour shifts. And you don't need to put double quotes around employees. They are employees and deserve to work in a good environment like everyone else

jimktrains2 8y ago
While I'm not defending the schedules that hospital employees work, one thing to factor in is that every hand off can increase errors. (I wish I could find a paper, but I'm on mobile and not having luck.) However, yes, I do believe that multiple 12+ hour days in a row is ultimately counterproductive. Also, I wonder if overlapping shifts would reduce the chance of errors.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
chrisseaton 8y ago
Those long shifts are there to protect patient safety - they reduce the number of dangerous handovers. Part of being a doctor or in something like the military is putting other people first rather than having a comfortable short day.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  What if handovers are dangerous in large part because the outgoing shift members are fatigued to the point of intoxication?
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Take this for example - from the Guardian, a very left-wing newspaper that is normally about as far from arguing for longer hours for works as you can possibly get. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confidential-patient-care-study https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confiden... > The report suggests the shorter working week is responsible for a lack of continuity in out-of-hours care > shortening rota hours had led to more shift changes between medical teams and greater chances for mistakes to occur > the early effects of the 48-hour European working time limit on surgeons and found that these new rotas had almost entirely removed adequate time for handover of sick patients Also think about this - those doctors who don't do handovers, such as a dermatologist doing out-patient clinics, don't work long hours. Hospitals only do it where clinically required.
- gus_massa 8y ago
  Handovers are dangerous, but making decisions that need your full attention after hard working 11:30 hours is also dangerous. And sometime doctors have even longer shifts. It's an insane culture. My guess is that it is easy to spot error in handovers (X didn't say/write this, Y didn't hear/read that). But errors due that you have worked 11:30 hours are more difficult to isolate.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Why do you think the hospitals do long shifts then? Just for fun? They don't do it for people who aren't doing handovers, like general practitioners who can work half-days just a couple of times a week if they want, or administrations. So we know it isn't inherent for doctors or for the staffing of the hospital. Only for those doing handovers...
    - AlexCoventry 8y ago
      > Why do you think the hospitals do long shifts then? Just for fun? Because the culture of US medical training was initiated by a coke addict, and it's extremely conservative and slow-moving. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        But medical shifts are like this the world-over.
        AlexCoventry 8y ago
        Why do you believe that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours#EU_regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours#EU...
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        That’s exactly what I mean - cf https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confidential-patient-care-study https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/05/nhs-confiden... In the UK they always worked long shifts because it’s safer. They’re trying to stop them, and it’s less safe. Why do you think the reason the UK has always worked long hours is due to a drug addiction in the US rather than experience in safety?

ilikehurdles 8y ago

Hospitals have some of the most toxic work cultures around. So much of that shit is perpetuated by senior level employees justifying hours that are harmful to patient care with “I went through it so why shouldn’t you?”

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]