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Brexit vote expressed people disagreement with bureaucracy and corruption like this, not with being a part of Europe.

viraptor 8y ago
You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
- dbdjfjrjvebd 8y ago
  Listening to people that voted for Brexit has shown me that they voted for it for many reasons. This is one of the reasons that people have given me. Furthermore this is a reason that many remainers were not able to push the case for remain strongly enough.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    > This is one of the reasons that people have given me. Which by definition means it wasn't the only reason, which proves kozikow's comment to be untrue.
    - pessimizer 8y ago
      It doesn't unless kozikow deleted some reference to it being "the only reason." It's a commonly cited gripe. I suspect it often comes from people entirely unfamiliar with EU processes, but who don't like EU membership or the idea of EU membership for other reasons and since it's a commonly cited gripe (and also doesn't mention immigrants, and has a pro-democratic connotation) they use it themselves. It would be strange that no one in this thread has ever heard a Brexiteer cite bureaucracy and corruption, but I fear it's an urge to insist that the only reason that anybody voted for Brexit was racism to delegitimatize leaver votes or even the possibility of debate between two good people on the subject. I fear that attitude will not convert many previous leavers to new remainers in any future people's vote. I suggest not bothering with arguments against racism, which racists will have heard before and dismissed, looking at left-wing arguments against EU membership from the 70s, and responding to those.
  - viraptor 8y ago
    I was looking more for large surveys. I've seen lots of them pointing out control of the laws as a reason, but none that singled out corruption as a reason.
- jgmjgm 8y ago
  Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on a basic comment like this there is not. Based on the other comments, it seems people are more upset about the perspective behind this idea rather than its truthfulness. I don't agree with the perspective that leaving the EU is a good thing but it is uncontrovertible that a significant portion of the population in the UK agrees with OP's statement.
  - soneil 8y ago
    I don't think it's nonsense at all. The vote was a binary yes/no. Whenever someone ascribes shades of grey to a "yes" or a "no", I'm also curious about where they derived this from. Because what he's telling us wasn't on the ballot at all. So I'm not sure I'd agree the point is "a fairly standard one". Some will say it was about representation, some will say it was about sovereignty, some will say it was about immigration. Some will even say it was simply a protest against the status quo. Anyone who states "this is what we voted for" has decided that their reason for voting yes was the primary reason for 17m to vote yes, with no evidence at all.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    Leading up to the Brexit vote, there was famously a bus driving around expressing the idea that voting to leave would result in a savings of 350 million pounds per week, which could be reinvested in the NHS. I don't think there was a bus about bureaucracy.
    - bjelkeman-again 8y ago
      That claim was a misuse of statistics. It was more like 250M. https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-statistics-authority-misuse/ https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-s...
rimliu 8y ago
To quote a comment on reddit: “It is monumentally ironic that the Member State planning to leave the EU because they want to make their own decisions, can't take any decision on leaving the EU.”
- mbrumlow 8y ago
  That is actually funny. But I think it is important that leaving also gives them the right to be just as indecisive as they want. Maybe being slow and arguing and thinking more about huge changes is exactly what they want.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Except both major party leaders invoked a50 when they didn’t need to. One of those leaders called to invoke it the morning after. The winning “vote leave” campaign said it was a careful process.
isostatic 8y ago
Brexit was all about stopping Muslims from coming to the UK and kicking out people with brown skin. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/30/it-is-terrible-but-i-still-want-it-crewe-voters-size-up-no-deal-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/30/it-is-terri...
- meowface 8y ago
  The article does not support your claim. I also think it's exactly claims like that which directly lead to things like Brexit (and Trump).
  - isostatic 8y ago
    They were saying: ‘We’re coming out of Europe and then we can get rid of you.’ I told them: ‘I’m a British citizen.’ I got citizenship 20 years ago after fleeing from Iraq. But they said: ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ve got dark skin.’ My 11-year-old daughter has heard this too.”
    - meowface 8y ago
      The fact that that incident occurred does not come close to supporting the claim you made. Maybe it would support a much more carefully constructed claim.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        Britain’s vote to leave the EU was the result of widespread anti-immigration sentiment, rather than a wider dissatisfaction with politics, according to a major survey of social attitudes in the UK. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-lates... But it’s not European immigration https://screenshot.net/2lxzmbn https://screenshot.net/2lxzmbn I’ve been canvassing for the last week, the majority of people want brexit stopped. Of those that don’t the vast majority don’t care what we end up with as long as it stops the immigrants.
bsder 8y ago
As one of many reasons. This is the current problem that the UK is facing with Brexit. People have an array of gripes that all landed under the "Brexit" umbrella. The problem is that some of those gripes are in direct opposition to one another, but it didn't matter because "Brexit" was magically going to fix it. However, now that you have to reduce to implementation, you can't get anybody to agree on the concrete of what "Brexit" should actually encompass.

You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

dbdjfjrjvebd 8y ago
Listening to people that voted for Brexit has shown me that they voted for it for many reasons. This is one of the reasons that people have given me. Furthermore this is a reason that many remainers were not able to push the case for remain strongly enough.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > This is one of the reasons that people have given me. Which by definition means it wasn't the only reason, which proves kozikow's comment to be untrue.
  - pessimizer 8y ago
    It doesn't unless kozikow deleted some reference to it being "the only reason." It's a commonly cited gripe. I suspect it often comes from people entirely unfamiliar with EU processes, but who don't like EU membership or the idea of EU membership for other reasons and since it's a commonly cited gripe (and also doesn't mention immigrants, and has a pro-democratic connotation) they use it themselves. It would be strange that no one in this thread has ever heard a Brexiteer cite bureaucracy and corruption, but I fear it's an urge to insist that the only reason that anybody voted for Brexit was racism to delegitimatize leaver votes or even the possibility of debate between two good people on the subject. I fear that attitude will not convert many previous leavers to new remainers in any future people's vote. I suggest not bothering with arguments against racism, which racists will have heard before and dismissed, looking at left-wing arguments against EU membership from the 70s, and responding to those.
- viraptor 8y ago
  I was looking more for large surveys. I've seen lots of them pointing out control of the laws as a reason, but none that singled out corruption as a reason.
jgmjgm 8y ago
Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous. There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data. However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place for asking for references, but on a basic comment like this there is not. Based on the other comments, it seems people are more upset about the perspective behind this idea rather than its truthfulness. I don't agree with the perspective that leaving the EU is a good thing but it is uncontrovertible that a significant portion of the population in the UK agrees with OP's statement.
- soneil 8y ago
  I don't think it's nonsense at all. The vote was a binary yes/no. Whenever someone ascribes shades of grey to a "yes" or a "no", I'm also curious about where they derived this from. Because what he's telling us wasn't on the ballot at all. So I'm not sure I'd agree the point is "a fairly standard one". Some will say it was about representation, some will say it was about sovereignty, some will say it was about immigration. Some will even say it was simply a protest against the status quo. Anyone who states "this is what we voted for" has decided that their reason for voting yes was the primary reason for 17m to vote yes, with no evidence at all.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  Leading up to the Brexit vote, there was famously a bus driving around expressing the idea that voting to leave would result in a savings of 350 million pounds per week, which could be reinvested in the NHS. I don't think there was a bus about bureaucracy.
  - bjelkeman-again 8y ago
    That claim was a misuse of statistics. It was more like 250M. https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-statistics-authority-misuse/ https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-s...

rimliu 8y ago

To quote a comment on reddit: “It is monumentally ironic that the Member State planning to leave the EU because they want to make their own decisions, can't take any decision on leaving the EU.”

mbrumlow 8y ago
That is actually funny. But I think it is important that leaving also gives them the right to be just as indecisive as they want. Maybe being slow and arguing and thinking more about huge changes is exactly what they want.
- isostatic 8y ago
  Except both major party leaders invoked a50 when they didn’t need to. One of those leaders called to invoke it the morning after. The winning “vote leave” campaign said it was a careful process.

isostatic 8y ago

Brexit was all about stopping Muslims from coming to the UK and kicking out people with brown skin. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/30/it-is-terrible-but-i-still-want-it-crewe-voters-size-up-no-deal-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/30/it-is-terri...

meowface 8y ago
The article does not support your claim. I also think it's exactly claims like that which directly lead to things like Brexit (and Trump).
- isostatic 8y ago
  They were saying: ‘We’re coming out of Europe and then we can get rid of you.’ I told them: ‘I’m a British citizen.’ I got citizenship 20 years ago after fleeing from Iraq. But they said: ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ve got dark skin.’ My 11-year-old daughter has heard this too.”
  - meowface 8y ago
    The fact that that incident occurred does not come close to supporting the claim you made. Maybe it would support a much more carefully constructed claim.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      Britain’s vote to leave the EU was the result of widespread anti-immigration sentiment, rather than a wider dissatisfaction with politics, according to a major survey of social attitudes in the UK. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-lates... But it’s not European immigration https://screenshot.net/2lxzmbn https://screenshot.net/2lxzmbn I’ve been canvassing for the last week, the majority of people want brexit stopped. Of those that don’t the vast majority don’t care what we end up with as long as it stops the immigrants.

bsder 8y ago

As one of many reasons. This is the current problem that the UK is facing with Brexit. People have an array of gripes that all landed under the "Brexit" umbrella. The problem is that some of those gripes are in direct opposition to one another, but it didn't matter because "Brexit" was magically going to fix it. However, now that you have to reduce to implementation, you can't get anybody to agree on the concrete of what "Brexit" should actually encompass.