4 ms·

Supposing there was such a thing, what would a Debian developer's hypothetical "billing rate" be? US$300k seems like it'll fund roughly 1 proper man-year while

Supposing there was such a thing, what would a Debian developer's hypothetical "billing rate" be? US$300k seems like it'll fund roughly 1 proper man-year while covering indirect costs and effectively zero profit margin.

cerberusss 8y ago
If you live in the US in a HCOL area, sure. Edit: after thinking about it, my comment is unfounded and probably nonsense.
- metaphor 8y ago
  Might I ask how you came to that conclusion? My remarks assumed a rough US national average. The enterprise billing rate for top SV talent certainly exceeds ~$144/hr.
  - cerberusss 8y ago
    I made a guesstimate based on the rate of a US freelancer I employed in the past. However, I just checked his most recent bill, then multiplying that by ~1800 hours (1 year), indeed it almost hits the 300k. So I have to admit my comment doesn't make much sense.
    - metaphor 8y ago
      Thanks for the clarification. My estimate was based on 2080 hrs/yr; indirect costs such as insurance coverage, paid annual/sick leave, 401(k) matching, and operating costs that one might associate with a large software distribution. Probably worth noting that the average freelancer bills a lot lower than typical for-profit enterprise.
- chronogram 8y ago
  You misunderstood. It’s the billing rate, not the salary that was asked about. Like when you call a plumber.
  - metaphor 8y ago
    Yes, exactly. When I first learned what my employer charges for 1 hour of my time, I was shocked and had to completely retool how I thought about these things...and that was knowing beforehand that, by law, we're not allowed to profit, and management had artificially lowered the engineering rate 2 years in row to make up for inefficiencies on the production side, keeping the organization competitive as a whole.
    - chronogram 8y ago
      It must feel nice to work at a nonprofit. Assuming you have previous experience at for-profit companies, do you like that aspect of your job?
      - metaphor 8y ago
        I did, and I do, but to be sure, the organization I work for isn't a non-profit. Our branch's projects manifest when: 1) data rights are on lockdown and can't legally be distributed; 2) data is limited, making acquisition risk too high; or 3) bids from the private sector far exceed what acquisition estimates suggest they should reasonably be. In general, these constraints tend to keep things both interesting and challenging.
      - gtirloni 8y ago
        I've worked at two non-profits in the education sector and it's quite a change from having worked at for-profits, mostly in the IT sector. Things are way more relaxed (deadlines, SLAs, etc) and there's a constant worry about running out of funding so they make very conservative choices regarding buying equipment or using public clouds, for instance. I find it's hard to measure things as well when you're working with subjective metrics (e.g. are users "happy"? how do we define that?). Either that or these things didn't get communicated down the chain properly. The mission is usually a big boost to your morale and engagement, but it's not the same for everyone.
        chronogram 8y ago
maheart 8y ago
Freexian[1] is a software development company that hires developers[2] to work on Debian LTS[3]. The rates appear to be roughly $100/hr[4], which is about $200k/yr. [1] https://www.freexian.com/ https://www.freexian.com/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding [3] https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ [4] https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html
- metaphor 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing. Didn't know they existed. Raphael's monthly reports[1] were very insightful and explains why equivalent billing rate seems anecdotally low. [1] https://raphaelhertzog.com/tag/Freexian+LTS/ https://raphaelhertzog.com/tag/Freexian+LTS/
- tyingq 8y ago
  Nitpick, but calling it out as clients sometimes do the same thing as they see the math repeated. The back of the napkin $100 x 40 x 50 == $200k w2 salary is misleading. Aside from self employment tax, needed liability insurance, no health insurance subsidy, no 401k match, etc...depending on location, you can also be subject to franchise taxes, etc. And most people making $200k as a salary don't work 50 weeks a year. The health insurance subsidies alone, at a good company, are often worth $12k+/year, for example.

cerberusss 8y ago

If you live in the US in a HCOL area, sure. Edit: after thinking about it, my comment is unfounded and probably nonsense.

metaphor 8y ago
Might I ask how you came to that conclusion? My remarks assumed a rough US national average. The enterprise billing rate for top SV talent certainly exceeds ~$144/hr.
- cerberusss 8y ago
  I made a guesstimate based on the rate of a US freelancer I employed in the past. However, I just checked his most recent bill, then multiplying that by ~1800 hours (1 year), indeed it almost hits the 300k. So I have to admit my comment doesn't make much sense.
  - metaphor 8y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. My estimate was based on 2080 hrs/yr; indirect costs such as insurance coverage, paid annual/sick leave, 401(k) matching, and operating costs that one might associate with a large software distribution. Probably worth noting that the average freelancer bills a lot lower than typical for-profit enterprise.
chronogram 8y ago
You misunderstood. It’s the billing rate, not the salary that was asked about. Like when you call a plumber.
- metaphor 8y ago
  Yes, exactly. When I first learned what my employer charges for 1 hour of my time, I was shocked and had to completely retool how I thought about these things...and that was knowing beforehand that, by law, we're not allowed to profit, and management had artificially lowered the engineering rate 2 years in row to make up for inefficiencies on the production side, keeping the organization competitive as a whole.
  - chronogram 8y ago
    It must feel nice to work at a nonprofit. Assuming you have previous experience at for-profit companies, do you like that aspect of your job?
    - metaphor 8y ago
      I did, and I do, but to be sure, the organization I work for isn't a non-profit. Our branch's projects manifest when: 1) data rights are on lockdown and can't legally be distributed; 2) data is limited, making acquisition risk too high; or 3) bids from the private sector far exceed what acquisition estimates suggest they should reasonably be. In general, these constraints tend to keep things both interesting and challenging.
    - gtirloni 8y ago
      I've worked at two non-profits in the education sector and it's quite a change from having worked at for-profits, mostly in the IT sector. Things are way more relaxed (deadlines, SLAs, etc) and there's a constant worry about running out of funding so they make very conservative choices regarding buying equipment or using public clouds, for instance. I find it's hard to measure things as well when you're working with subjective metrics (e.g. are users "happy"? how do we define that?). Either that or these things didn't get communicated down the chain properly. The mission is usually a big boost to your morale and engagement, but it's not the same for everyone.
      - chronogram 8y ago

maheart 8y ago

Freexian[1] is a software development company that hires developers[2] to work on Debian LTS[3]. The rates appear to be roughly $100/hr[4], which is about $200k/yr. [1] https://www.freexian.com/ https://www.freexian.com/ [2] https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding [3] https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ [4] https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html

metaphor 8y ago
Thanks for sharing. Didn't know they existed. Raphael's monthly reports[1] were very insightful and explains why equivalent billing rate seems anecdotally low. [1] https://raphaelhertzog.com/tag/Freexian+LTS/ https://raphaelhertzog.com/tag/Freexian+LTS/
tyingq 8y ago
Nitpick, but calling it out as clients sometimes do the same thing as they see the math repeated. The back of the napkin $100 x 40 x 50 == $200k w2 salary is misleading. Aside from self employment tax, needed liability insurance, no health insurance subsidy, no 401k match, etc...depending on location, you can also be subject to franchise taxes, etc. And most people making $200k as a salary don't work 50 weeks a year. The health insurance subsidies alone, at a good company, are often worth $12k+/year, for example.