4 ms·

It feels like a regression. I don't really enjoy conversations with these tools. It's not as fun to converse with someone over the course of days when each mess

It feels like a regression. I don't really enjoy conversations with these tools. It's not as fun to converse with someone over the course of days when each message is some hours after the last. It is also not clear when people might want to talk. Synchronous IM was better because it was clear when people were available to talk, and when they were they would be attentive enough to have a real-time, fulfilling conversation. I haven't experienced that since MSN died. Now everyone is always available on their phone, but also not truly available at any time. Presence indicators don't mean much any more because people may be online just to view Facebook, or on their phone only momentarily. I think another contributing factor to the decline in quality of IM conversations is the use of phone keyboards. They are so much worse to type on than a real keyboard that I believe it changes the nature and quality of conversations people have considerably, for the worse.

dmortin 8y ago
> It is also not clear when people might want to talk. Synchronous IM was better because it was clear when people were available to talk That's why async is great, because people can answer whenever they like. > when they were they would be attentive enough to have a real-time, fulfilling conversation For this kind of conversation IM is not a good medium. In case of a real time, attentive convesation a phone call is much better, isn't it?
- ubercow13 8y ago
  They can answer whenever they like, but when I choose to read their reply I will have lost some of my train of thought or maybe lost interest in the topic. It doesn't allow for the same quality, or at least type, of discourse in my experience. >IM is not a good medium It certainly was a good medium - I had lots of great conversations on old IM services and so did countless others. See this related thread from the other day [1] You could talk to many people at the same time, unlike a phone call. You could more easily do it at the same time as your homework, watching a film, or doing something else on the internet. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19370281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19370281
- Fellshard 8y ago
  You have to reinvent whole new protocols for those async conversations in the process, though, or misunderstandings or even outright failings in trust can ensue (as this article points out in a couple of examples.) Any time you completely change a fundamental understanding of how something is done - especially something as critically foundational as communication - you end up having to build new rules quickly, or risk destroying either that foundation or trust in the new protocol.
johnchristopher 8y ago
> I think another contributing factor to the decline in quality of IM conversations is the use of phone keyboards. They are so much worse to type on than a real keyboard that I believe it changes the nature and quality of conversations people have considerably, for the worse. I am not so sure about that. I remember conversation from my 3310 and it was way shorter blip of words. I love word drawing, it speeds up my writing by a 5x factor (or 3x or 10x, don't know). The thing is you never really know if the other party is up for long sentences because you can't tell if he's behind a computer keyboard or a phone (or god forbids, a tablet). It usually means "I am on the phone, talk to you later")
- ubercow13 8y ago
  Yes, I think smartphone keyboards are obviously much better than a dumbphone, but worse than a PC keyboard. The problem is that now smartphone keyboards are used so much more frequently, in so many more situations. You can often tell when someone is typing from a phone in a IM message, an email, or a Hacker News comment.
  - throwaway287391 8y ago
    > Yes, I think smartphone keyboards are obviously much better than a dumbphone Really? I could imagine some (or maybe even most) people are faster on a smartphone, but for me it's "obviously" worse. I'm tremendously slower on iOS/Android on-screen keyboards than I was with T9. I could text really fast using T9 on a hard keypad without even looking down at the screen, despite only really using it heavily for a year or two. Then I got a Blackberry Curve, a kind-of-but-not-really-smartphone with a full hard QWERTY keyboard -- there I was similarly fast. Then came the iPhone and screen-only Android phones and I got much slower and less precise, and touch-typing is a total crapshoot. Despite having used them for almost 10 years now, I don't think I've ever recovered to anywhere near the speed I had with even a T9 keypad. I think the key difference is a hard keyboard (or even 10 digit keypad). I'm not saying smartphones aren't enough of an improvement in other ways (obviously, since I've chosen them over dumbphones for a decade), but I really miss the haptic feedback of actual keys.
  - 8y ago
dmortin 8y ago
> I think another contributing factor to the decline in quality of IM conversations is the use of phone keyboards. They are so much worse to type on than a real keyboard If I am at a place by myself then I just talk, using speech to text. Speech recognition is pretty good these days, I usually only have to fix small things in the resulting text (names, etc.), and it's much faster than typing a longer message.
sah2ed 8y ago
> Presence indicators don't mean much any more because people may be online just to view Facebook, or on their phone only momentarily. Presence indicators combined with status messages (e.g “walking the dog”) were the original inspiration behind Jack Dorsey’s conception of Twitter.
- dmurray 8y ago
  And behind WhatsApp. Messaging came later.

dmortin 8y ago

> It is also not clear when people might want to talk. Synchronous IM was better because it was clear when people were available to talk That's why async is great, because people can answer whenever they like. > when they were they would be attentive enough to have a real-time, fulfilling conversation For this kind of conversation IM is not a good medium. In case of a real time, attentive convesation a phone call is much better, isn't it?

ubercow13 8y ago
They can answer whenever they like, but when I choose to read their reply I will have lost some of my train of thought or maybe lost interest in the topic. It doesn't allow for the same quality, or at least type, of discourse in my experience. >IM is not a good medium It certainly was a good medium - I had lots of great conversations on old IM services and so did countless others. See this related thread from the other day [1] You could talk to many people at the same time, unlike a phone call. You could more easily do it at the same time as your homework, watching a film, or doing something else on the internet. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19370281 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19370281
Fellshard 8y ago
You have to reinvent whole new protocols for those async conversations in the process, though, or misunderstandings or even outright failings in trust can ensue (as this article points out in a couple of examples.) Any time you completely change a fundamental understanding of how something is done - especially something as critically foundational as communication - you end up having to build new rules quickly, or risk destroying either that foundation or trust in the new protocol.

johnchristopher 8y ago

> I think another contributing factor to the decline in quality of IM conversations is the use of phone keyboards. They are so much worse to type on than a real keyboard that I believe it changes the nature and quality of conversations people have considerably, for the worse. I am not so sure about that. I remember conversation from my 3310 and it was way shorter blip of words. I love word drawing, it speeds up my writing by a 5x factor (or 3x or 10x, don't know). The thing is you never really know if the other party is up for long sentences because you can't tell if he's behind a computer keyboard or a phone (or god forbids, a tablet). It usually means "I am on the phone, talk to you later")

ubercow13 8y ago
Yes, I think smartphone keyboards are obviously much better than a dumbphone, but worse than a PC keyboard. The problem is that now smartphone keyboards are used so much more frequently, in so many more situations. You can often tell when someone is typing from a phone in a IM message, an email, or a Hacker News comment.
- throwaway287391 8y ago
  > Yes, I think smartphone keyboards are obviously much better than a dumbphone Really? I could imagine some (or maybe even most) people are faster on a smartphone, but for me it's "obviously" worse. I'm tremendously slower on iOS/Android on-screen keyboards than I was with T9. I could text really fast using T9 on a hard keypad without even looking down at the screen, despite only really using it heavily for a year or two. Then I got a Blackberry Curve, a kind-of-but-not-really-smartphone with a full hard QWERTY keyboard -- there I was similarly fast. Then came the iPhone and screen-only Android phones and I got much slower and less precise, and touch-typing is a total crapshoot. Despite having used them for almost 10 years now, I don't think I've ever recovered to anywhere near the speed I had with even a T9 keypad. I think the key difference is a hard keyboard (or even 10 digit keypad). I'm not saying smartphones aren't enough of an improvement in other ways (obviously, since I've chosen them over dumbphones for a decade), but I really miss the haptic feedback of actual keys.
- 8y ago

dmortin 8y ago

> I think another contributing factor to the decline in quality of IM conversations is the use of phone keyboards. They are so much worse to type on than a real keyboard If I am at a place by myself then I just talk, using speech to text. Speech recognition is pretty good these days, I usually only have to fix small things in the resulting text (names, etc.), and it's much faster than typing a longer message.

sah2ed 8y ago

> Presence indicators don't mean much any more because people may be online just to view Facebook, or on their phone only momentarily. Presence indicators combined with status messages (e.g “walking the dog”) were the original inspiration behind Jack Dorsey’s conception of Twitter.

dmurray 8y ago
And behind WhatsApp. Messaging came later.