6 ms·

Pitchers Adulterating Baseballs

59 points by mykowebhn 8y ago

ddeck 8y ago
Reminiscent of the countless ball tampering incidents in the sport of cricket. [1] Of the England cricket team in 2005: "It was my job to keep the shine on the new ball for as long as possible with a bit of spit and a lot of polish. And through trial and error I finally settled on the type of spit for the task at hand. It had been common knowledge in county cricket for some time that certain sweets produced saliva which, when applied to the ball for cleaning purposes, enabled it to keep its shine for longer and therefore its swing." He found Murray Mints worked the best. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering#Examples_and_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering#Examples_and_al...
- cardiffspaceman 8y ago
  How pervasive does altering the ball have to become before we start to be suspicious if the ball doesn't look altered?
  - insbrueck 8y ago
    Kind of an inane, fear mongering question. Why foment an atmosphere of malignant intent? Paranoia and a suspicious tone of this sort is unnecessary, when it's trivial to reason what should be considered typical and ordinary. What does a brand-new ball look like? What does a worn-in ball look like? Expectations should be somewhere in between. The only reason a the rules of the game don't require a factory fresh, new ball for every turn, is because it would seem and feel wasteful. But in other sports and games, organizers DO go to great lengths to enforce authenticity, and prevent equipment tampering. Casino gambling uses fresh decks of cards, and extra shuffling, to prevent marking and counting, otherwise, the playing field acquires memory, reducing chance, and conferring advantage to attentive players.
  - bigger_cheese 8y ago
    Cricket is a bit different to baseball because polishing the ball is an accepted part of the game. By polishing one side of the ball and allowing the other-side to naturally grow dull you alter the flight characteristics of the ball - it's how you can achieve movement through the air or 'swing'. The ball is rarely replaced - it is very much intended for the condition of the ball to deteriorate over the course of an innings various tactics revolve around when to make bowling changes as some bowlers specialize with the 'new' ball which is shiny and hard and others have a style designed to exploit the older ball which is softer and more dull. There are certain time milestones that elapse in the match where captain can elect to replace a old worn ball with a new shiny ball. The illegal part is ball tampering rubbing some foreign substance against the ball such as dirt or mud to weight it down or scuffing up the ball with something (A player on the Australian team was caught using a strip of sandpaper, which was a big scandal over here recently).
    - abraae 8y ago
      At school, where such rules were not enforced, some kids used hair gel on one side of the ball. Most were too unskilled to really exploit it but a good bowler could achieve what felt like a metre of savage sideways swing, enough that a ball that started out looking like a wide would finish up whistling past the ears of the hapless batsman.
    - cardiffspaceman 8y ago
      > rubbing some foreign substance against the ball Isn't saliva, with or without Murray Mints, foreign enough?
- gadders 8y ago
  Australia recently took the opposite approach and tried to roughen one side of the ball with sandpaper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering...
- Mikeb85 8y ago
  Polishing the ball is acceptable in cricket (you polish one side and leave the other rough so the bowler can produce swing). What's not acceptable (but still happens) is players will rough up the other side with foreign objects.
  - hammock 8y ago
    That's fascinating, because I play competitive wiffle ball and we similarly scuff up new balls before using them- the curve characteristics are completely different vs a smooth one.
ImADemocRat 8y ago
Water is wet
cleetus 8y ago
If you're a baseball fan, the book 'The Glory of Their Times' mentioned in the NYT article is a phenomenal read. It's the recollections of about 20 players about their playing days in the early 20th century, and is a reminder of why the game is so special.
- brittonsmith 8y ago
  I absolutely love this book. I read an article a few years ago that casts some doubt on Rube Marquard's story [1], which was one of my favorites from the book. I don't think this actually changed my opinion of the book, but just added a little more color to it. I think it's this one. 1. https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/whos-the-worst-pitcher-in-the-hall-of-fame/ https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/whos-the-worst-pitcher-...
S_A_P 8y ago
I struggle with this, I think as long as you aren't getting spit in your eye as a batter, who cares if a pitcher throws a spit ball, a cutter, or any other "cheat" pitch. I feel like that is living on the margins and that you probably aren't affecting the balls flight path as much as you think you are. 60' 6" isn't really a great distance, and batters have generally hit 1 out of every 3 or 4 times they bat since basically forever...
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  A cutter isn't a cheat pitch, is it?
  - jrumbut 8y ago
    No it's not: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_fastball https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_fastball I do think it would make sense to give pitchers some additional grip aid like pine tar when the temperature is below a certain level. It seems like in the unwritten rules of the game, this is usually allowed if kept discrete. The great body of unwritten rules is what makes baseball so enjoyable to follow over many years but also may be contributing to the declining interest in general. It's a slow game the rewards patience, subtlety, etc.
    - dylan604 8y ago
      Sounds like trying to order from In-n-Out. The unwritten thing is a known thing, so why not just write it down?
      - naniwaduni 8y ago
        Maybe the sense of exclusivity is part of the appeal, too?
- sokoloff 8y ago
  Spit balls were originally banned ostensibly for batter safety. This was in an era before batting helmets and replacing the ball nearly every time it touched the ground. It’s not clear that reintroducing it would cause a safety concern, but MLB is interested in having a certain balance of defense and offense and giving the pitchers back the spitter would require some offsetting change for the offense. With the recent clampdown on PEDs, I think the balance is probably temporarily too pro-defense, so it seems unlikely that the league would be inclined to reintroduce.
SubiculumCode 8y ago
Here is my take. In long past times, baseballs were reused until warn out, and those that went into the stands were returned. This allowed the balls to get naturally bruised up, which inadvertently gave pitchers more (unpredictable) movement than today's clean, unused baseballs. Because of this, old pitchers may not have had to throw with as much elbow rotation as today's pitchers do to get effective levels of movement. This lower spin requirements meant less strain on arms of pitchers, letting them throw more innings and longer games than you typically see in today's baseball. Giving that pitcher's elbows are going out at record frequencies in the MLB in the last decade, I'm all for allowing pitchers to rough up balls some, moreover, enhance it beyond what they can do now. Optimally, I think the league should intentionally texture-ize parts of the ball to give pictures the spin they need, and thus help minimize injury risk.
- jrumbut 8y ago
  I think the pace they throw the ball at has to have something to do with it now too. Just in the last several years the number of pitchers throwing above 95 and above 100 seems to have dramatically increased. This page suggests the number of 95+ mph fastballs more than doubled in 10 years: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-fast-fastball-isnt-enough-anymore/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-fast-fastball-isnt-en... It could be that making it easier to throw tricky off speed pitches would take the load off of arms (and add some fun variety to the game).
  - SubiculumCode 8y ago
    Good point. And I don't think you have to throw 95+ if the ball gives you great movement. At the extreme, look up wiffle ball pitching on youtube; its wild.
    - jrumbut 8y ago
      I was going to say I remember the wiffle curve but I do not remember anything like those YouTube wiffle experts.
  - autokad 8y ago
otras 8y ago
Five Thirty Eight also had a great analysis on baseball modification last year, except the changes are by manufacturers and the MLB. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/juiced-baseballs/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/juiced-baseballs/
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Interestingly, in cricket, spitballs are legal and an integral part of bowling [1]. There's an odd middle ground where it's sort of legal to use foreign substances like sunblock or hair gel as long as you're not overt about it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering
- manojlds 8y ago
  And recent issue being one of the best cricketers in the world being caught tampering the ball with sandpaper - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tamperi...
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    It's appropriate that the Australian team wears yellow.

59 points by mykowebhn 8y ago

Reminiscent of the countless ball tampering incidents in the sport of cricket. [1] Of the England cricket team in 2005: "It was my job to keep the shine on the new ball for as long as possible with a bit of spit and a lot of polish. And through trial and error I finally settled on the type of spit for the task at hand. It had been common knowledge in county cricket for some time that certain sweets produced saliva which, when applied to the ball for cleaning purposes, enabled it to keep its shine for longer and therefore its swing." He found Murray Mints worked the best. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering#Examples_and_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering#Examples_and_al...

cardiffspaceman 8y ago
How pervasive does altering the ball have to become before we start to be suspicious if the ball doesn't look altered?
- insbrueck 8y ago
  Kind of an inane, fear mongering question. Why foment an atmosphere of malignant intent? Paranoia and a suspicious tone of this sort is unnecessary, when it's trivial to reason what should be considered typical and ordinary. What does a brand-new ball look like? What does a worn-in ball look like? Expectations should be somewhere in between. The only reason a the rules of the game don't require a factory fresh, new ball for every turn, is because it would seem and feel wasteful. But in other sports and games, organizers DO go to great lengths to enforce authenticity, and prevent equipment tampering. Casino gambling uses fresh decks of cards, and extra shuffling, to prevent marking and counting, otherwise, the playing field acquires memory, reducing chance, and conferring advantage to attentive players.
- bigger_cheese 8y ago
  Cricket is a bit different to baseball because polishing the ball is an accepted part of the game. By polishing one side of the ball and allowing the other-side to naturally grow dull you alter the flight characteristics of the ball - it's how you can achieve movement through the air or 'swing'. The ball is rarely replaced - it is very much intended for the condition of the ball to deteriorate over the course of an innings various tactics revolve around when to make bowling changes as some bowlers specialize with the 'new' ball which is shiny and hard and others have a style designed to exploit the older ball which is softer and more dull. There are certain time milestones that elapse in the match where captain can elect to replace a old worn ball with a new shiny ball. The illegal part is ball tampering rubbing some foreign substance against the ball such as dirt or mud to weight it down or scuffing up the ball with something (A player on the Australian team was caught using a strip of sandpaper, which was a big scandal over here recently).
  - abraae 8y ago
    At school, where such rules were not enforced, some kids used hair gel on one side of the ball. Most were too unskilled to really exploit it but a good bowler could achieve what felt like a metre of savage sideways swing, enough that a ball that started out looking like a wide would finish up whistling past the ears of the hapless batsman.
  - cardiffspaceman 8y ago
    > rubbing some foreign substance against the ball Isn't saliva, with or without Murray Mints, foreign enough?
gadders 8y ago
Australia recently took the opposite approach and tried to roughen one side of the ball with sandpaper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering...
Mikeb85 8y ago
Polishing the ball is acceptable in cricket (you polish one side and leave the other rough so the bowler can produce swing). What's not acceptable (but still happens) is players will rough up the other side with foreign objects.
- hammock 8y ago
  That's fascinating, because I play competitive wiffle ball and we similarly scuff up new balls before using them- the curve characteristics are completely different vs a smooth one.

ImADemocRat 8y ago

Water is wet

cleetus 8y ago

If you're a baseball fan, the book 'The Glory of Their Times' mentioned in the NYT article is a phenomenal read. It's the recollections of about 20 players about their playing days in the early 20th century, and is a reminder of why the game is so special.

brittonsmith 8y ago
I absolutely love this book. I read an article a few years ago that casts some doubt on Rube Marquard's story [1], which was one of my favorites from the book. I don't think this actually changed my opinion of the book, but just added a little more color to it. I think it's this one. 1. https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/whos-the-worst-pitcher-in-the-hall-of-fame/ https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/03/28/whos-the-worst-pitcher-...

S_A_P 8y ago

I struggle with this, I think as long as you aren't getting spit in your eye as a batter, who cares if a pitcher throws a spit ball, a cutter, or any other "cheat" pitch. I feel like that is living on the margins and that you probably aren't affecting the balls flight path as much as you think you are. 60' 6" isn't really a great distance, and batters have generally hit 1 out of every 3 or 4 times they bat since basically forever...

throwaway5752 8y ago
A cutter isn't a cheat pitch, is it?
- jrumbut 8y ago
  No it's not: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_fastball https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_fastball I do think it would make sense to give pitchers some additional grip aid like pine tar when the temperature is below a certain level. It seems like in the unwritten rules of the game, this is usually allowed if kept discrete. The great body of unwritten rules is what makes baseball so enjoyable to follow over many years but also may be contributing to the declining interest in general. It's a slow game the rewards patience, subtlety, etc.
  - dylan604 8y ago
    Sounds like trying to order from In-n-Out. The unwritten thing is a known thing, so why not just write it down?
    - naniwaduni 8y ago
      Maybe the sense of exclusivity is part of the appeal, too?
sokoloff 8y ago
Spit balls were originally banned ostensibly for batter safety. This was in an era before batting helmets and replacing the ball nearly every time it touched the ground. It’s not clear that reintroducing it would cause a safety concern, but MLB is interested in having a certain balance of defense and offense and giving the pitchers back the spitter would require some offsetting change for the offense. With the recent clampdown on PEDs, I think the balance is probably temporarily too pro-defense, so it seems unlikely that the league would be inclined to reintroduce.

SubiculumCode 8y ago

Here is my take. In long past times, baseballs were reused until warn out, and those that went into the stands were returned. This allowed the balls to get naturally bruised up, which inadvertently gave pitchers more (unpredictable) movement than today's clean, unused baseballs. Because of this, old pitchers may not have had to throw with as much elbow rotation as today's pitchers do to get effective levels of movement. This lower spin requirements meant less strain on arms of pitchers, letting them throw more innings and longer games than you typically see in today's baseball. Giving that pitcher's elbows are going out at record frequencies in the MLB in the last decade, I'm all for allowing pitchers to rough up balls some, moreover, enhance it beyond what they can do now. Optimally, I think the league should intentionally texture-ize parts of the ball to give pictures the spin they need, and thus help minimize injury risk.

jrumbut 8y ago
I think the pace they throw the ball at has to have something to do with it now too. Just in the last several years the number of pitchers throwing above 95 and above 100 seems to have dramatically increased. This page suggests the number of 95+ mph fastballs more than doubled in 10 years: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-fast-fastball-isnt-enough-anymore/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-fast-fastball-isnt-en... It could be that making it easier to throw tricky off speed pitches would take the load off of arms (and add some fun variety to the game).
- SubiculumCode 8y ago
  Good point. And I don't think you have to throw 95+ if the ball gives you great movement. At the extreme, look up wiffle ball pitching on youtube; its wild.
  - jrumbut 8y ago
    I was going to say I remember the wiffle curve but I do not remember anything like those YouTube wiffle experts.
- autokad 8y ago

otras 8y ago

Five Thirty Eight also had a great analysis on baseball modification last year, except the changes are by manufacturers and the MLB. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/juiced-baseballs/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/juiced-baseballs/

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Interestingly, in cricket, spitballs are legal and an integral part of bowling [1]. There's an odd middle ground where it's sort of legal to use foreign substances like sunblock or hair gel as long as you're not overt about it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_tampering

manojlds 8y ago
And recent issue being one of the best cricketers in the world being caught tampering the ball with sandpaper - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tampering_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Australian_ball-tamperi...
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  It's appropriate that the Australian team wears yellow.