My take is that frameworks are great when you are building new projects, but become somewhat limiting over time. Also, with a complex application you often find

My take is that frameworks are great when you are building new projects, but become somewhat limiting over time. Also, with a complex application you often find that not everything can be nicely abstracted and there are features which cut across the stack, requiring changes everywhere. In my fairly large Clojure+ClojureScript app I do not use a framework, mostly because nothing existed when I started. I pick libraries and make them work together. This has advantages, but also brings endless frustration when I have to deal with stuff like web authentication, file uploads, or Oauth2. I really wish there were good solutions for these kinds of generic problems. Also, not all choices made by the framework are necessarily a good fit for every application size. I used to like Reagent, and I still think it's great for learning. But then it became limiting, I switched to Rum and never looked back. But in general, why not take the Clojure approach and use the right tool for the right thing? You don't have to chain yourself for life to a framework, you can use a framework for one app and use a bunch of separate libraries in another. I think in the Java world there is so much incidental complexity, that you have to choose a single framework and stick with it, as it's likely the only thing you will be able to learn. Not so in the Clojure world.