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I keep hearing this dismay at the cop not getting consequences. If we assume comparative negligence and the cop that actually pulled the trigger is say 90% resp

I keep hearing this dismay at the cop not getting consequences. If we assume comparative negligence and the cop that actually pulled the trigger is say 90% responsible. Then are you arguing that that the cop should get 20 years for responding to a shooter threat and killing someone that he thought was reaching for a firearm and the kid that perpetrated the prank gets 2 years? Or are you saying 100% cop that pulled the trigger and nothing for the kid that pulled the prank?

danudey 8y ago
How about 100% of one set of crimes for the person who put people's lives in danger and also 100% for another crime that caused that person to lose their life?
- bazooka_penguin 8y ago
  And how would that look. Conspiracy to murder and murder?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    The SWAT-ing should be considered attempted murder in 2019. The shooting should be considered a police officer put into a tense situation, making a split second life or death decision. He made the wrong call. He made a mistake, and someone lost their life needlessly. I don't think he should be culpable for murder, however. Murder is premeditated, by definition. We should be looking at different procedures around hostage situations, with the possibility of crank SWATing calls in mind. Putting people into these situations needlessly, on the basis of just one anonymous report, without checking and confirming the facts, isn't acting responsibly.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > The SWAT-ing should be considered attempted murder in 2019 If there is no specific intent to kill, that's as wrong in 2019 as any other year. OTOH, it does seem to be the kind of act with extreme disregard to the risk to human life that, where death does result, the “depraved indifference” subtype of murder exists to address. Even if not that, filing a false police report is a crime (depending on jurisdiction and circumstances it may either be a felony or misdemeanor) and the death is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of that, so either the felony murder or misdemeanor manslaughter rule should apply.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        If there is no specific intent to kill, that's as wrong in 2019 as any other year. OTOH, it does seem to be the kind of act with extreme disregard to the risk to human life that, where death does result, the “depraved indifference” subtype of murder exists to address. You are right about the lack of specific intent. In 2019, it should be considered common knowledge that doing this sort of thing creates the potential for loss of life. I would be just fine with 'the “depraved indifference” subtype of murder.'
        dragontamer 8y ago
        I'm not a lawyer (and I'm not the other guy, despite sharing "Dragon" in the name). The way the law was described to me, is that most crimes have approximately 3 levels: * Criminal Negligence (Negligent Death / Involuntary Manslaughter) * Criminal Recklessness (Manslaughter) * Criminal Malice (Murder) Things may get more detailed (Murder 1st degree usually has a "premeditated" clause), but that's the general pattern. The argument is that a Police Officer who shoots an innocent man would likely be either Criminally Negligent, or maybe Criminally Reckless, in his job. Negligence is obviously the lowest bar for a crime. It is clear that the officer was negligent in confirming whether or not the suspect was reaching for a gun (because the suspect in this case was unarmed). Recklessness might be a case if the officer drew the gun too early. Hard for me to say if this case fits the bar, especially because the prank caller would have biased the officers. We all understand that there was no malice in the behavior. But guess what? A mother who leaves their underage child alone too long can be held criminally negligent if the child gets hurt. As a society, we expect all citizens (officers included) to do their job.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        As a society, we expect all citizens (officers included) to do their job. I think the record shows, that putting officers into that situation too often is a recipe for disaster. We shouldn't be using a force optimized for "takedown of fortified gang hideouts" for domestic violence cases. We shouldn't be letting pranksters deploy such forces.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - scarface74 8y ago
      I’m not condoning swatting, but why should an innocent person expect to be shot by the police?
dragonwriter 8y ago
> If we assume comparative negligence Criminal responsibility doesn't work that way. Heck, IIRC, civil responsibility for negligence usually doesn't work that way, even in jurisdictions with a comparative negligence rule, except between the plaintiff and the set of all defendants. > Then are you arguing that that the cop should get 20 years for responding to a shooter threat and killing someone that he thought was reaching for a firearm and the kid that perpetrated the prank gets 2 years? No, the cop should get 100% of the punishment for a crime somewhere on the range between voluntary manslaughter and murder (of the depraved indifference sort, which is typically second degree.) And the SWATter should get 100% of the punishment for filing a false police report and a homicide crime which might be any of involuntary (misdemeanor) manslaughter (if the false report is a misdemeanor in the jurisdiction), depraved indifference murder, or felony murder (of the false report is a felony.)

danudey 8y ago

How about 100% of one set of crimes for the person who put people's lives in danger and also 100% for another crime that caused that person to lose their life?

bazooka_penguin 8y ago
And how would that look. Conspiracy to murder and murder?
- stcredzero 8y ago
  The SWAT-ing should be considered attempted murder in 2019. The shooting should be considered a police officer put into a tense situation, making a split second life or death decision. He made the wrong call. He made a mistake, and someone lost their life needlessly. I don't think he should be culpable for murder, however. Murder is premeditated, by definition. We should be looking at different procedures around hostage situations, with the possibility of crank SWATing calls in mind. Putting people into these situations needlessly, on the basis of just one anonymous report, without checking and confirming the facts, isn't acting responsibly.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > The SWAT-ing should be considered attempted murder in 2019 If there is no specific intent to kill, that's as wrong in 2019 as any other year. OTOH, it does seem to be the kind of act with extreme disregard to the risk to human life that, where death does result, the “depraved indifference” subtype of murder exists to address. Even if not that, filing a false police report is a crime (depending on jurisdiction and circumstances it may either be a felony or misdemeanor) and the death is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of that, so either the felony murder or misdemeanor manslaughter rule should apply.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      If there is no specific intent to kill, that's as wrong in 2019 as any other year. OTOH, it does seem to be the kind of act with extreme disregard to the risk to human life that, where death does result, the “depraved indifference” subtype of murder exists to address. You are right about the lack of specific intent. In 2019, it should be considered common knowledge that doing this sort of thing creates the potential for loss of life. I would be just fine with 'the “depraved indifference” subtype of murder.'
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        I'm not a lawyer (and I'm not the other guy, despite sharing "Dragon" in the name). The way the law was described to me, is that most crimes have approximately 3 levels: * Criminal Negligence (Negligent Death / Involuntary Manslaughter) * Criminal Recklessness (Manslaughter) * Criminal Malice (Murder) Things may get more detailed (Murder 1st degree usually has a "premeditated" clause), but that's the general pattern. The argument is that a Police Officer who shoots an innocent man would likely be either Criminally Negligent, or maybe Criminally Reckless, in his job. Negligence is obviously the lowest bar for a crime. It is clear that the officer was negligent in confirming whether or not the suspect was reaching for a gun (because the suspect in this case was unarmed). Recklessness might be a case if the officer drew the gun too early. Hard for me to say if this case fits the bar, especially because the prank caller would have biased the officers. We all understand that there was no malice in the behavior. But guess what? A mother who leaves their underage child alone too long can be held criminally negligent if the child gets hurt. As a society, we expect all citizens (officers included) to do their job.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        As a society, we expect all citizens (officers included) to do their job. I think the record shows, that putting officers into that situation too often is a recipe for disaster. We shouldn't be using a force optimized for "takedown of fortified gang hideouts" for domestic violence cases. We shouldn't be letting pranksters deploy such forces.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I’m not condoning swatting, but why should an innocent person expect to be shot by the police?

dragonwriter 8y ago

> If we assume comparative negligence Criminal responsibility doesn't work that way. Heck, IIRC, civil responsibility for negligence usually doesn't work that way, even in jurisdictions with a comparative negligence rule, except between the plaintiff and the set of all defendants. > Then are you arguing that that the cop should get 20 years for responding to a shooter threat and killing someone that he thought was reaching for a firearm and the kid that perpetrated the prank gets 2 years? No, the cop should get 100% of the punishment for a crime somewhere on the range between voluntary manslaughter and murder (of the depraved indifference sort, which is typically second degree.) And the SWATter should get 100% of the punishment for filing a false police report and a homicide crime which might be any of involuntary (misdemeanor) manslaughter (if the false report is a misdemeanor in the jurisdiction), depraved indifference murder, or felony murder (of the false report is a felony.)