4 ms·

Are there any instances where SWAT has produced good consequences that can justify this wanton police procedure?

stcredzero 8y ago
What's wanton about it, is that as the response is currently formulated, there's no due process. Make an accusation, and people are quickly put in the sights of many, many guns. If you put that power in the hands of potential pranksters, this sort of outcome is what you get in our current world. What if we could send an android to calmly knock on the front door and ask questions?
- jandrese 8y ago
  Bomb robots aren't unheard of. Sending a camera on wheels in to check out a situation you are unsure of doesn't sound terrible to me. Or hell, this is a great use for a camera drone. While I'm sure there's some handwringing about tipping off the perps it really shouldn't be any worse than a whole bunch of guys swarming the yard and surrounding the house. One of those little racing drones with the good camera would seem to be perfect for checking out the house before you send guys crashing through every window and chucking flashbangs into rooms blind.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Sending a camera on wheels in to check out a situation you are unsure of doesn't sound terrible to me...Or hell, this is a great use for a camera drone I don't think it should be too hardware-ish. The officer android from "Detroit Become Human" would be just about right. (Without the coin juggling.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1pbWCJcKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1pbWCJcKQ
    - jandrese 8y ago
      I'm not even talking about knocking on the door here. Just something that can fly up to some open windows and see if it looks like a murder scene with people huddling around terrified/blood everywhere/guns out or if the house is full of people just chilling doing normal stuff. SWAT tactics were seemingly designed around the assumption that the residence is a fortified gang base with lookouts and the like. This means the SWAT teams are going in blind because they don't want to alert the armed guards, but this leads to situations where flashbangs get tossed into cribs with infants because one of the cops transposed the street number of the house when calling in the report. It's exactly the opposite of what you would thing responsible policing should be.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        Just something that can fly up to some open windows and see if it looks like a murder scene with people huddling around terrified/blood everywhere/guns out or if the house is full of people just chilling doing normal stuff. It would have to be a very quiet drone. I think we could build such devices. (Not necessarily flying.) SWAT tactics were seemingly designed around the assumption that the residence is a fortified gang base with lookouts and the like. This means the SWAT teams are going in blind because they don't want to alert the armed guards...It's exactly the opposite of what you would thing responsible policing should be. I think we as a society need to revisit this assumption. We really want to avoid teams of armed, tense men running into a building with guns. Given a large enough number of iterations of such events, an accidental shooting is just a matter of when, not if. I think those running fortified gang bases also want to avoid public hostage scenarios. The fortified gang base assault mode should be reserved for situations where there is solid intelligence, not on the call of some rando.
        jandrese 8y ago
        I saw a demo for a drone that had these oddly shaped ducts around the fans. They didn't necessarily make it quieter, but they directed the noise upwards. The company was marketing them to birdwatchers, but I had a feeling the actual clients would be different.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        DEF CON 23 - Robinson and Mitchell - Knocking my neighbors kids cruddy drone offline https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CzURm7OpAA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CzURm7OpAA
      - smileysteve 8y ago
        > Just something that can fly up to some open windows and see if it looks like a murder scene with people huddling around terrified/blood everywhere/guns out or if the house is full of people just chilling doing normal stuff. They can do this with IR cameras, they just can't use it for a search warrant.
NikkiA 8y ago
Pretty much every hostage / armed-standoff situation that has ended without a loss of life, in the last 50 years. That's probably hundreds of thousands of 'good outcomes'. 'SWATting' as an attack is a problem, who knows what the solution to it is, but SWAT as a concept is kind of necessary in a country with a ridiculously armed populace, and even in countries without such a populace, there is usually an analog for situations that deem a similar response.
jandrese 8y ago
The reason for creating SWAT was police getting shot while investigating gang/drug houses. Basically, they were meant to be used in exceptional circumstances against groups of criminals who were expected to fight back with violence when the police arrived. But once you have a SWAT department (which is expensive), people feel compelled to use them to justify their existence. It's questionable to me that these sorts of tactics were necessary for a reported domestic violence incident, but I'm sure there are cases in history where someone shot at/killed the cops after killing a family member.

What's wanton about it, is that as the response is currently formulated, there's no due process. Make an accusation, and people are quickly put in the sights of many, many guns. If you put that power in the hands of potential pranksters, this sort of outcome is what you get in our current world. What if we could send an android to calmly knock on the front door and ask questions?

jandrese 8y ago
Bomb robots aren't unheard of. Sending a camera on wheels in to check out a situation you are unsure of doesn't sound terrible to me. Or hell, this is a great use for a camera drone. While I'm sure there's some handwringing about tipping off the perps it really shouldn't be any worse than a whole bunch of guys swarming the yard and surrounding the house. One of those little racing drones with the good camera would seem to be perfect for checking out the house before you send guys crashing through every window and chucking flashbangs into rooms blind.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Sending a camera on wheels in to check out a situation you are unsure of doesn't sound terrible to me...Or hell, this is a great use for a camera drone I don't think it should be too hardware-ish. The officer android from "Detroit Become Human" would be just about right. (Without the coin juggling.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1pbWCJcKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1pbWCJcKQ
  - jandrese 8y ago
    I'm not even talking about knocking on the door here. Just something that can fly up to some open windows and see if it looks like a murder scene with people huddling around terrified/blood everywhere/guns out or if the house is full of people just chilling doing normal stuff. SWAT tactics were seemingly designed around the assumption that the residence is a fortified gang base with lookouts and the like. This means the SWAT teams are going in blind because they don't want to alert the armed guards, but this leads to situations where flashbangs get tossed into cribs with infants because one of the cops transposed the street number of the house when calling in the report. It's exactly the opposite of what you would thing responsible policing should be.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Just something that can fly up to some open windows and see if it looks like a murder scene with people huddling around terrified/blood everywhere/guns out or if the house is full of people just chilling doing normal stuff. It would have to be a very quiet drone. I think we could build such devices. (Not necessarily flying.) SWAT tactics were seemingly designed around the assumption that the residence is a fortified gang base with lookouts and the like. This means the SWAT teams are going in blind because they don't want to alert the armed guards...It's exactly the opposite of what you would thing responsible policing should be. I think we as a society need to revisit this assumption. We really want to avoid teams of armed, tense men running into a building with guns. Given a large enough number of iterations of such events, an accidental shooting is just a matter of when, not if. I think those running fortified gang bases also want to avoid public hostage scenarios. The fortified gang base assault mode should be reserved for situations where there is solid intelligence, not on the call of some rando.
      - jandrese 8y ago
        I saw a demo for a drone that had these oddly shaped ducts around the fans. They didn't necessarily make it quieter, but they directed the noise upwards. The company was marketing them to birdwatchers, but I had a feeling the actual clients would be different.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        DEF CON 23 - Robinson and Mitchell - Knocking my neighbors kids cruddy drone offline https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CzURm7OpAA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CzURm7OpAA
    - smileysteve 8y ago
      > Just something that can fly up to some open windows and see if it looks like a murder scene with people huddling around terrified/blood everywhere/guns out or if the house is full of people just chilling doing normal stuff. They can do this with IR cameras, they just can't use it for a search warrant.

NikkiA 8y ago

Pretty much every hostage / armed-standoff situation that has ended without a loss of life, in the last 50 years. That's probably hundreds of thousands of 'good outcomes'. 'SWATting' as an attack is a problem, who knows what the solution to it is, but SWAT as a concept is kind of necessary in a country with a ridiculously armed populace, and even in countries without such a populace, there is usually an analog for situations that deem a similar response.

jandrese 8y ago

The reason for creating SWAT was police getting shot while investigating gang/drug houses. Basically, they were meant to be used in exceptional circumstances against groups of criminals who were expected to fight back with violence when the police arrived. But once you have a SWAT department (which is expensive), people feel compelled to use them to justify their existence. It's questionable to me that these sorts of tactics were necessary for a reported domestic violence incident, but I'm sure there are cases in history where someone shot at/killed the cops after killing a family member.