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Well, I disagree with this view. I do not want to risk nuclear war with Russia over ... Latvia. Let alone Georgia (who shelled Russian troops -presumably you fo

Well, I disagree with this view. I do not want to risk nuclear war with Russia over ... Latvia. Let alone Georgia (who shelled Russian troops -presumably you forgot about this part; also the part about how Russia left Georgia, because it's not really expansionist the way you seem to think it is). Or Ukraine. I mean, cool heavy metal records, and I like khachapuri as much as the next guy; it isn't something I care about enough to risk living in radioactive cinders. I do not see the US as world policeman, and do not trust the scumbags running the place to do a good job of it even if I did think that was a good idea. Since you bring up Georgia; how do you explain how our dude in Georgia, Saakashvili, showed up running a big chunk of Ukraine for a while? Does that not seem shady and "the US running Ukraine like a satrapy" to you?

simonh 8y ago
The risk there is that you’ll end up just rolling over every time Russia waves a nuke at you. Something they are very much willing to do. Shelling Russian troops. As I remember it, that mostly involved Russian tropps, er, on Georgian territory. It was a messy conflict though. As for Saakashvili, last I checked he wasn’t an American, so what does he have to do with America running anything? Of course I know the answer. Trying to smear the activities of local citizens, by blaming their activities on foreign powers, is a despicable attempt at de-legitimisation that’s frankly shameful. Even if I were to let that pass though. Suppose all those Ukrainian citizens out on the streets in the Orange Revolution were all paid US agents. That’s between Ukrain and the US, or between Russia and the US. How does it in any way justify the appalling treatment of ordinary Ukrainians and Georgians by Russia? How can Russia justify waging war against these nations on the basis of the actions of a third party? It makes no sense, of course because it’s a naked attempt to de-legitimise local citizens and change the subject.
- scottlocklin 8y ago
  You don't have a good answer for why Russia left Georgia, do you? If Russia were an expansionist bully, rather than a bunch of paranoids who would really rather NATO not encroach on its borders (or Georgian hotheads shelling its troops on a disputed border), you'd think they'd have stayed in Georgia, wouldn't you? Saakashvili is no longer a "local citizen of Ukraine" the last time I checked. He was a US puppet, imposed on Odesa Oblast. I don't think he'd ever BEEN to Odesa before; we were keeping him on ice in Brooklyn (oddly over an apartment I've stayed in) after his insane attempt to invade Abkhazia. I suppose by your lights, the US isn't presently fomenting revolution in Venezuela, and Pinochet was totally a native Chilean organic response to Allende. Fine: if the last three years has taught us anything, it is that some people will believe anything as long as it is told in the US media. Anyway, even if the Russian does do something crazy like attempt to take Georgia, I really don't care! It's not my business. I don't want a nuclear war over Georgia. This is a legitimate and sane political position, which somehow the military industrial complex has convinced people is actually crazy talk and that I should risk duke nukem for a country 5000 miles away most people confuse with a southern state (which has 3x the population of Georgia the country).
  - simonh 8y ago
    Imposed rulers don’t usually end up bein the most popular politician in the country, yet somehow Saakashvili managed it. It’s hard to argue he’s illegitimate in the face of public support like that, so bravo for managing it anyway. Still, the point is none of this America bashing in any way justifies Russia’s appalling abuses of of Ukraine and Ukrainians. It’s like a husband blaming his wife beating on how annoying the neighbours are.
    - scottlocklin 8y ago
      Sure they do; in the short term, and when given the backing of a nuclear superpower with a media monopoly. Worked for Yushchenko for a while! Now he's the most universally hated former leader in Ukraine. Saakashvili is presently not even a Ukraine citizen any more! Imagine that!

simonh 8y ago

The risk there is that you’ll end up just rolling over every time Russia waves a nuke at you. Something they are very much willing to do. Shelling Russian troops. As I remember it, that mostly involved Russian tropps, er, on Georgian territory. It was a messy conflict though. As for Saakashvili, last I checked he wasn’t an American, so what does he have to do with America running anything? Of course I know the answer. Trying to smear the activities of local citizens, by blaming their activities on foreign powers, is a despicable attempt at de-legitimisation that’s frankly shameful. Even if I were to let that pass though. Suppose all those Ukrainian citizens out on the streets in the Orange Revolution were all paid US agents. That’s between Ukrain and the US, or between Russia and the US. How does it in any way justify the appalling treatment of ordinary Ukrainians and Georgians by Russia? How can Russia justify waging war against these nations on the basis of the actions of a third party? It makes no sense, of course because it’s a naked attempt to de-legitimise local citizens and change the subject.

scottlocklin 8y ago
You don't have a good answer for why Russia left Georgia, do you? If Russia were an expansionist bully, rather than a bunch of paranoids who would really rather NATO not encroach on its borders (or Georgian hotheads shelling its troops on a disputed border), you'd think they'd have stayed in Georgia, wouldn't you? Saakashvili is no longer a "local citizen of Ukraine" the last time I checked. He was a US puppet, imposed on Odesa Oblast. I don't think he'd ever BEEN to Odesa before; we were keeping him on ice in Brooklyn (oddly over an apartment I've stayed in) after his insane attempt to invade Abkhazia. I suppose by your lights, the US isn't presently fomenting revolution in Venezuela, and Pinochet was totally a native Chilean organic response to Allende. Fine: if the last three years has taught us anything, it is that some people will believe anything as long as it is told in the US media. Anyway, even if the Russian does do something crazy like attempt to take Georgia, I really don't care! It's not my business. I don't want a nuclear war over Georgia. This is a legitimate and sane political position, which somehow the military industrial complex has convinced people is actually crazy talk and that I should risk duke nukem for a country 5000 miles away most people confuse with a southern state (which has 3x the population of Georgia the country).
- simonh 8y ago
  Imposed rulers don’t usually end up bein the most popular politician in the country, yet somehow Saakashvili managed it. It’s hard to argue he’s illegitimate in the face of public support like that, so bravo for managing it anyway. Still, the point is none of this America bashing in any way justifies Russia’s appalling abuses of of Ukraine and Ukrainians. It’s like a husband blaming his wife beating on how annoying the neighbours are.
  - scottlocklin 8y ago
    Sure they do; in the short term, and when given the backing of a nuclear superpower with a media monopoly. Worked for Yushchenko for a while! Now he's the most universally hated former leader in Ukraine. Saakashvili is presently not even a Ukraine citizen any more! Imagine that!