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A Mars colony is something humanity should start thinking seriously about once we successfully run a production-grade lunar colony for about a decade-- long eno

by gryfft 8y ago

A Mars colony is something humanity should start thinking seriously about once we successfully run a production-grade lunar colony for about a decade-- long enough to recognize and tackle the worst bugs.

maxxxxx 8y ago
True. On moon you still have a chance to quickly send some new parts which you can’t do on mars.
- aetherson 8y ago
  Quicker, sure. Though not particularly cheaper. And the moon has a bunch of problems that Mars doesn't, like 14 day nights. The moon's advantages are probably seem intuitively somewhat larger than they actually are.
JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Heck how about a colony on top of Mt Everest? Its actually more congenial there, than on Mars. And a hell of a lot closer.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  An autonomous station in Antarctica or maybe the Atacama desert would probably be pretty realistic.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Not as good as Everest - there's still breathable air in the desert. And its warmer in those places.
- eximius 8y ago
  Much less flat, though.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Mars, flat? It has the highest mountain in the Solar System, Olympus Mons. Plenty of rugged places on Mars that outshine anything Earth can put up. But yeah, we probably wouldn't put a base those places, not initially. Though I wonder if a volcano base would tell us more about the planet's interior...and its fairly flat including lots of high walls to protect against winds/storms? https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Mars_Express/Olympus_Mons_-_the_caldera_in_close-up https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Mars_Expres...
aliswe 8y ago
A sustainable colony on earth would be a good pilot
- spacenick88 8y ago
  But without saying "this is a test for Mars" such a colony will never be built. Even in Antarctica shipping in supplies once a year is just sooo much easier.
asark 8y ago
I understand a Martian colony as a kind of romantic dream. I understand a longish-term Martian outpost for scientific purposes. I don't get a Martian colony as a serious proposal for pretty much any reason. It's like 1000x more expensive, dangerous, and inconvenient than colonizing any number of very-inhospitable places on Earth. To survive planetary disaster? Well 1) Mars is already worse than most imaginable post-disaster Earths would likely be, and 2) you could build a couple highly-survivable emergency bunker-habitats and pay people to live in them (in shifts, say, so there are always enough inside to ensure survival but they're not stuck in there full time) for, surely, less money than Martian colony establishment & maintenance would cost. You might still screw it up and they might not succeed if things really got that bad, but I'd bet their odds are better than any Martian colony we're likely to manage to put up in the next 100 years.
- jacoblambda 8y ago
  While imo the moon is probably a better immediate target for approaching space fairing status, I think Mars does provide useful opportunities. I think on the architectural & engineering side developing structures for Mars would provide immense progress in understanding sustainability for life on earth or elsewhere. This has applications for doomsday scenarios if you care about that as well as just general efficiency and sustainability of structures. Likewise I think Mars has benefit as a potential launch point for space travel as it has an abundance of fuel and a significantly lighter gravity well. Another part is the whole "necessity is the mother of invention" aspect. There is no quicker way to progress than doing. Yes it may be horribly dangerous but trial by fire has been repeatedly shown as a very effective way of exploring the unknown.
- merlincorey 8y ago
  > 2) you could build a couple highly-survivable emergency bunker-habitats and pay people to live in them (in shifts, say, so there are always enough inside to ensure survival but they're not stuck in there full time) for, surely, less money than Martian colony establishment & maintenance would cost. We could call these bunker-habitats "vaults", maybe. Then proceed to raise some capital for our startup and eventually call it "Vault-Tec"[0]. > You might still screw it up and they might not succeed if things really got that bad, but I'd bet their odds are better than any Martian colony we're likely to manage to put up in the next 100 years. We could further fund it by conducting various sociological experiments. What could go wrong?[1] [0] https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation [1] https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault
simonh 8y ago
The trouble is many of the problems of living in those environments are very different. Mars does have an atmosphere, which means cheap abundant CO2. It has much stronger gravity. The numerology is completely different. The moon’s vacuum environment is much harsher with starker temperature differences. It looks like sharp moon dust will be a significant abrasion risk to equipment - not a problem on Mars. Also while both have water ice, the methods for extraction will likely be very different.
- DanBC 8y ago
  > It looks like sharp moon dust will be a significant abrasion risk to equipment - not a problem on Mars Mars has dust fine enough to be effectively aerosolised, and the low pressure makes removing it a bit tricky. NASA has some ideas. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/kennedy-scientists-developing-technology-to-remove-martian-dust https://www.nasa.gov/feature/kennedy-scientists-developing-t...
  - notabee 8y ago
    The Martian dust also contains a lot of toxic perchlorate, which could cause thyroid issues if it gets into the habitats. https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals...
ajuc 8y ago
We can make sustainable space habitats now. They solve the same problems a Mars colony do, for a fraction of cost, with no huge rockets, months-long trips, and certain death if something goes wrong.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Except having a solid ground under your feet. We haven't really used spin gravity in practice yet, so there are technical problems to solve there.

by gryfft 8y ago

maxxxxx 8y ago

True. On moon you still have a chance to quickly send some new parts which you can’t do on mars.

aetherson 8y ago
Quicker, sure. Though not particularly cheaper. And the moon has a bunch of problems that Mars doesn't, like 14 day nights. The moon's advantages are probably seem intuitively somewhat larger than they actually are.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

Heck how about a colony on top of Mt Everest? Its actually more congenial there, than on Mars. And a hell of a lot closer.

maxxxxx 8y ago
An autonomous station in Antarctica or maybe the Atacama desert would probably be pretty realistic.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Not as good as Everest - there's still breathable air in the desert. And its warmer in those places.
eximius 8y ago
Much less flat, though.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Mars, flat? It has the highest mountain in the Solar System, Olympus Mons. Plenty of rugged places on Mars that outshine anything Earth can put up. But yeah, we probably wouldn't put a base those places, not initially. Though I wonder if a volcano base would tell us more about the planet's interior...and its fairly flat including lots of high walls to protect against winds/storms? https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Mars_Express/Olympus_Mons_-_the_caldera_in_close-up https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Mars_Expres...

aliswe 8y ago

A sustainable colony on earth would be a good pilot

spacenick88 8y ago
But without saying "this is a test for Mars" such a colony will never be built. Even in Antarctica shipping in supplies once a year is just sooo much easier.

asark 8y ago

I understand a Martian colony as a kind of romantic dream. I understand a longish-term Martian outpost for scientific purposes. I don't get a Martian colony as a serious proposal for pretty much any reason. It's like 1000x more expensive, dangerous, and inconvenient than colonizing any number of very-inhospitable places on Earth. To survive planetary disaster? Well 1) Mars is already worse than most imaginable post-disaster Earths would likely be, and 2) you could build a couple highly-survivable emergency bunker-habitats and pay people to live in them (in shifts, say, so there are always enough inside to ensure survival but they're not stuck in there full time) for, surely, less money than Martian colony establishment & maintenance would cost. You might still screw it up and they might not succeed if things really got that bad, but I'd bet their odds are better than any Martian colony we're likely to manage to put up in the next 100 years.

jacoblambda 8y ago
While imo the moon is probably a better immediate target for approaching space fairing status, I think Mars does provide useful opportunities. I think on the architectural & engineering side developing structures for Mars would provide immense progress in understanding sustainability for life on earth or elsewhere. This has applications for doomsday scenarios if you care about that as well as just general efficiency and sustainability of structures. Likewise I think Mars has benefit as a potential launch point for space travel as it has an abundance of fuel and a significantly lighter gravity well. Another part is the whole "necessity is the mother of invention" aspect. There is no quicker way to progress than doing. Yes it may be horribly dangerous but trial by fire has been repeatedly shown as a very effective way of exploring the unknown.
merlincorey 8y ago
> 2) you could build a couple highly-survivable emergency bunker-habitats and pay people to live in them (in shifts, say, so there are always enough inside to ensure survival but they're not stuck in there full time) for, surely, less money than Martian colony establishment & maintenance would cost. We could call these bunker-habitats "vaults", maybe. Then proceed to raise some capital for our startup and eventually call it "Vault-Tec"[0]. > You might still screw it up and they might not succeed if things really got that bad, but I'd bet their odds are better than any Martian colony we're likely to manage to put up in the next 100 years. We could further fund it by conducting various sociological experiments. What could go wrong?[1] [0] https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation [1] https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault

simonh 8y ago

The trouble is many of the problems of living in those environments are very different. Mars does have an atmosphere, which means cheap abundant CO2. It has much stronger gravity. The numerology is completely different. The moon’s vacuum environment is much harsher with starker temperature differences. It looks like sharp moon dust will be a significant abrasion risk to equipment - not a problem on Mars. Also while both have water ice, the methods for extraction will likely be very different.

DanBC 8y ago
> It looks like sharp moon dust will be a significant abrasion risk to equipment - not a problem on Mars Mars has dust fine enough to be effectively aerosolised, and the low pressure makes removing it a bit tricky. NASA has some ideas. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/kennedy-scientists-developing-technology-to-remove-martian-dust https://www.nasa.gov/feature/kennedy-scientists-developing-t...
- notabee 8y ago
  The Martian dust also contains a lot of toxic perchlorate, which could cause thyroid issues if it gets into the habitats. https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals...

ajuc 8y ago

We can make sustainable space habitats now. They solve the same problems a Mars colony do, for a fraction of cost, with no huge rockets, months-long trips, and certain death if something goes wrong.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Except having a solid ground under your feet. We haven't really used spin gravity in practice yet, so there are technical problems to solve there.