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Or for a more aggressive line "you know how the US has been agitating for war with Russia for the last decade or so? Well, you can partially blame these guys."

Or for a more aggressive line "you know how the US has been agitating for war with Russia for the last decade or so? Well, you can partially blame these guys." Also, speaking of foreign interference: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters

simonh 8y ago
So Russia annexes Crimea and sends troops into Eastern Ukrain and Georgian territory, even shooting down an airliner, and it's the US agitating for war. Really? Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. In fact this is probably literally true. If there's anything we've learned about Putin, it's that cutting him slack just gives him more rope with which to hang you later.
- scottlocklin 8y ago
  The US fomented a coup in Ukraine, an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in, and the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia. We're presently overtly looting the place 3 ways to Christmas; something you'd know if we had a media system which allowed people to notice. FWIIW I've been in Crimea before the annexation, and my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). Wake me up when Russia foments a coup in Canada and the US annexes Vancouver or whatever. Russian government isn't nice, but the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
  - dsabanin 8y ago
    One thing is supporting political groups in another country that benefit you, which is something all countries do. Another thing is annexing territory of another country, that was given to that country by your previous shared and fair agreement. That agreement also mandated Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons under guarantees that Russia will not threaten it’s territorial borders. This is how WW2 started - Hitler’s pretense was that he wanted to protect and unite the territories full of Germans that want to be part of fatherland and that were lost in WW1.
    - jcranmer 8y ago
      "If you give me the Ruhr, I won't ask for anything more." "If you give me Austria, I promise I'll stop there." "Only the Sudetenland. Last one, I promise." "Danzig... this is really, truly the last one, I swear."
  - Yizahi 8y ago
    LIE - The US fomented a coup in Ukraine LIE - an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in LIE - the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia Highly subjective - my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). (other polls pre-war has shown no more than 50/50 pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian) LIE - the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
    - scottlocklin 8y ago
      Unlike you, I can provide citations for all of it. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excuse-for-ukraine-coup/ https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-votes-to-back-independence-from-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-v... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO I can't provide a citation for east ukraine being part of Russia, as all the old maps simply list it as "russia." Even in the brief "independence" of 1917, the East (capital in Karkov) immediately went communist under Russian direction and proceeded to conquer the rest of the place, except for the Polish west, which came later.
      - inn_shopper 8y ago
        So, your first link was to some antisemitic conspiratory blog (and your 'Nuland-Kagan' slip shows a bias). And your Wikipedia links clearly showing up the Russian attempts to instigate separatism in Crimea in 90-s (interestingly they've went to crush the same Chechen separatism later). And as for 1917 - Kharkov was _captured_ by Russians. And they've continued to annex rest of the Ukraine.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        Can you provide a citation to something more reputable than "Consortium News"?
  - simonh 8y ago
    The east of Ukraine voted for independence by 83%. So much for historically part of Russia! Many of the people voting for Russia in Crime were, er, Russian citizens working there. That's not an excuse for annexation. I happen to have some sympathy for Russia claims on Crimea for historical reasons, but annexation is many steps to far and what they've done to the Donbas and sealing off the Sea of Azov coast is utterly inexcusable. I just don't accept that the US fomented anything in Ukraine. The people on the streets were Ukrianian citizens. Legitimate native protesters are routinely painted as foreign agents, but that doesn't make it the case. There is no real reason for Ukrain and Russia to be at odds like this. Ukrainians have done nothing whatever to deserve the shoddy, dishonest knives in the back Russia has been dishing out to them. Ordinary Russians should be ashamed and humiliated by the way their government is ruthlessly betraying Ukrain and bullying ordinary Ukrainians at every turn. All they wanted was to function as an independent state and have friendly relations with the rest of Europe, but this was too much for Putin to stomach. What kind of example would that set for Russians? Ukraine now has an active, boisterous and unruly democracy just as it should. That's a sign of health, compared to the sham opposition groups that always vote with the government and suspiciously overwhelming approval ratings you commonly get under oppressive regimes.
    - senderista 8y ago
      Maybe this could change your mind? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601G20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a...
      - simonh 8y ago
        Not really, no. People talk like that about their own and foreign nations politics all the time. Of course the American ambassador to Ukraine has strong opinions about politics in Ukraine. It's their job. What is being alleged, or at least vaguely suggested, is America causing a coup that would not have otherwise happened. That's simply, obviously not what occurred in Ukraine and anyway they've had many free and open elections since. America and the EU was exerting diplomatic pressure in exactly the same ways as Russia (except for poisoning Ukrainian politicians with Dioxin), none of which justifies military action.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  > Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. Putin views NATO moving eastward as a threat. He's not totally insane to do so - Hitler nearly broke the USSR starting from the middle of Poland. If he had started from the middle of the Ukraine instead, the USSR might well have not survived. But that history only makes Putin not totally insane. He's still mostly nuts on this, because first, NATO is a defensive alliance. Second, there is exactly zero appetite in most of the NATO members for any kind of a major war - even a defensive war, I question whether they would actually fight the way the treaty requires them to. And third, the reason NATO is expanding is because those countries feel threatened by Russia and therefore want a big block of allies to protect them. They sought membership in NATO; NATO or the US didn't push them into it. If Russia were less aggressive, those countries would feel less need to join NATO.

simonh 8y ago

So Russia annexes Crimea and sends troops into Eastern Ukrain and Georgian territory, even shooting down an airliner, and it's the US agitating for war. Really? Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. In fact this is probably literally true. If there's anything we've learned about Putin, it's that cutting him slack just gives him more rope with which to hang you later.

scottlocklin 8y ago
The US fomented a coup in Ukraine, an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in, and the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia. We're presently overtly looting the place 3 ways to Christmas; something you'd know if we had a media system which allowed people to notice. FWIIW I've been in Crimea before the annexation, and my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). Wake me up when Russia foments a coup in Canada and the US annexes Vancouver or whatever. Russian government isn't nice, but the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
- dsabanin 8y ago
  One thing is supporting political groups in another country that benefit you, which is something all countries do. Another thing is annexing territory of another country, that was given to that country by your previous shared and fair agreement. That agreement also mandated Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons under guarantees that Russia will not threaten it’s territorial borders. This is how WW2 started - Hitler’s pretense was that he wanted to protect and unite the territories full of Germans that want to be part of fatherland and that were lost in WW1.
  - jcranmer 8y ago
    "If you give me the Ruhr, I won't ask for anything more." "If you give me Austria, I promise I'll stop there." "Only the Sudetenland. Last one, I promise." "Danzig... this is really, truly the last one, I swear."
- Yizahi 8y ago
  LIE - The US fomented a coup in Ukraine LIE - an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in LIE - the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia Highly subjective - my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). (other polls pre-war has shown no more than 50/50 pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian) LIE - the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
  - scottlocklin 8y ago
    Unlike you, I can provide citations for all of it. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excuse-for-ukraine-coup/ https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-votes-to-back-independence-from-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-v... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO I can't provide a citation for east ukraine being part of Russia, as all the old maps simply list it as "russia." Even in the brief "independence" of 1917, the East (capital in Karkov) immediately went communist under Russian direction and proceeded to conquer the rest of the place, except for the Polish west, which came later.
    - inn_shopper 8y ago
      So, your first link was to some antisemitic conspiratory blog (and your 'Nuland-Kagan' slip shows a bias). And your Wikipedia links clearly showing up the Russian attempts to instigate separatism in Crimea in 90-s (interestingly they've went to crush the same Chechen separatism later). And as for 1917 - Kharkov was _captured_ by Russians. And they've continued to annex rest of the Ukraine.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      Can you provide a citation to something more reputable than "Consortium News"?
- simonh 8y ago
  The east of Ukraine voted for independence by 83%. So much for historically part of Russia! Many of the people voting for Russia in Crime were, er, Russian citizens working there. That's not an excuse for annexation. I happen to have some sympathy for Russia claims on Crimea for historical reasons, but annexation is many steps to far and what they've done to the Donbas and sealing off the Sea of Azov coast is utterly inexcusable. I just don't accept that the US fomented anything in Ukraine. The people on the streets were Ukrianian citizens. Legitimate native protesters are routinely painted as foreign agents, but that doesn't make it the case. There is no real reason for Ukrain and Russia to be at odds like this. Ukrainians have done nothing whatever to deserve the shoddy, dishonest knives in the back Russia has been dishing out to them. Ordinary Russians should be ashamed and humiliated by the way their government is ruthlessly betraying Ukrain and bullying ordinary Ukrainians at every turn. All they wanted was to function as an independent state and have friendly relations with the rest of Europe, but this was too much for Putin to stomach. What kind of example would that set for Russians? Ukraine now has an active, boisterous and unruly democracy just as it should. That's a sign of health, compared to the sham opposition groups that always vote with the government and suspiciously overwhelming approval ratings you commonly get under oppressive regimes.
  - senderista 8y ago
    Maybe this could change your mind? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-u-s-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601G20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a...
    - simonh 8y ago
      Not really, no. People talk like that about their own and foreign nations politics all the time. Of course the American ambassador to Ukraine has strong opinions about politics in Ukraine. It's their job. What is being alleged, or at least vaguely suggested, is America causing a coup that would not have otherwise happened. That's simply, obviously not what occurred in Ukraine and anyway they've had many free and open elections since. America and the EU was exerting diplomatic pressure in exactly the same ways as Russia (except for poisoning Ukrainian politicians with Dioxin), none of which justifies military action.
AnimalMuppet 8y ago
> Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. Putin views NATO moving eastward as a threat. He's not totally insane to do so - Hitler nearly broke the USSR starting from the middle of Poland. If he had started from the middle of the Ukraine instead, the USSR might well have not survived. But that history only makes Putin not totally insane. He's still mostly nuts on this, because first, NATO is a defensive alliance. Second, there is exactly zero appetite in most of the NATO members for any kind of a major war - even a defensive war, I question whether they would actually fight the way the treaty requires them to. And third, the reason NATO is expanding is because those countries feel threatened by Russia and therefore want a big block of allies to protect them. They sought membership in NATO; NATO or the US didn't push them into it. If Russia were less aggressive, those countries would feel less need to join NATO.