5 ms·

Just for context, the Atlantic council is a think tank created to support nato and the American-European alliance in general, so take this with the appropriate

Just for context, the Atlantic council is a think tank created to support nato and the American-European alliance in general, so take this with the appropriate numbers of grains of salt.

scottlocklin 8y ago
Or for a more aggressive line "you know how the US has been agitating for war with Russia for the last decade or so? Well, you can partially blame these guys." Also, speaking of foreign interference: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters
- simonh 8y ago
  So Russia annexes Crimea and sends troops into Eastern Ukrain and Georgian territory, even shooting down an airliner, and it's the US agitating for war. Really? Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. In fact this is probably literally true. If there's anything we've learned about Putin, it's that cutting him slack just gives him more rope with which to hang you later.
  - scottlocklin 8y ago
    The US fomented a coup in Ukraine, an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in, and the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia. We're presently overtly looting the place 3 ways to Christmas; something you'd know if we had a media system which allowed people to notice. FWIIW I've been in Crimea before the annexation, and my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). Wake me up when Russia foments a coup in Canada and the US annexes Vancouver or whatever. Russian government isn't nice, but the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
    - dsabanin 8y ago
      One thing is supporting political groups in another country that benefit you, which is something all countries do. Another thing is annexing territory of another country, that was given to that country by your previous shared and fair agreement. That agreement also mandated Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons under guarantees that Russia will not threaten it’s territorial borders. This is how WW2 started - Hitler’s pretense was that he wanted to protect and unite the territories full of Germans that want to be part of fatherland and that were lost in WW1.
      - jcranmer 8y ago
        "If you give me the Ruhr, I won't ask for anything more." "If you give me Austria, I promise I'll stop there." "Only the Sudetenland. Last one, I promise." "Danzig... this is really, truly the last one, I swear."
    - Yizahi 8y ago
      LIE - The US fomented a coup in Ukraine LIE - an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in LIE - the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia Highly subjective - my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). (other polls pre-war has shown no more than 50/50 pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian) LIE - the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
      - scottlocklin 8y ago
        Unlike you, I can provide citations for all of it. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excuse-for-ukraine-coup/ https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-votes-to-back-independence-from-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-v... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO I can't provide a citation for east ukraine being part of Russia, as all the old maps simply list it as "russia." Even in the brief "independence" of 1917, the East (capital in Karkov) immediately went communist under Russian direction and proceeded to conquer the rest of the place, except for the Polish west, which came later.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    > Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. Putin views NATO moving eastward as a threat. He's not totally insane to do so - Hitler nearly broke the USSR starting from the middle of Poland. If he had started from the middle of the Ukraine instead, the USSR might well have not survived. But that history only makes Putin not totally insane. He's still mostly nuts on this, because first, NATO is a defensive alliance. Second, there is exactly zero appetite in most of the NATO members for any kind of a major war - even a defensive war, I question whether they would actually fight the way the treaty requires them to. And third, the reason NATO is expanding is because those countries feel threatened by Russia and therefore want a big block of allies to protect them. They sought membership in NATO; NATO or the US didn't push them into it. If Russia were less aggressive, those countries would feel less need to join NATO.
atomical 8y ago
I'll take them with a grain of salt when you post a counter argument with numbers.
Yizahi 8y ago
Source may be biased but that doesn't change that Russia is country of majority warmongering idiots. Small minority who doesn't agree with this are either brainwashed or emigrate.

Just for context, the Atlantic council is a think tank created to support nato and the American-European alliance in general, so take this with the appropriate numbers of grains of salt.

scottlocklin 8y ago

Or for a more aggressive line "you know how the US has been agitating for war with Russia for the last decade or so? Well, you can partially blame these guys." Also, speaking of foreign interference: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/support/supporters

simonh 8y ago
So Russia annexes Crimea and sends troops into Eastern Ukrain and Georgian territory, even shooting down an airliner, and it's the US agitating for war. Really? Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. In fact this is probably literally true. If there's anything we've learned about Putin, it's that cutting him slack just gives him more rope with which to hang you later.
- scottlocklin 8y ago
  The US fomented a coup in Ukraine, an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in, and the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia. We're presently overtly looting the place 3 ways to Christmas; something you'd know if we had a media system which allowed people to notice. FWIIW I've been in Crimea before the annexation, and my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). Wake me up when Russia foments a coup in Canada and the US annexes Vancouver or whatever. Russian government isn't nice, but the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
  - dsabanin 8y ago
    One thing is supporting political groups in another country that benefit you, which is something all countries do. Another thing is annexing territory of another country, that was given to that country by your previous shared and fair agreement. That agreement also mandated Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons under guarantees that Russia will not threaten it’s territorial borders. This is how WW2 started - Hitler’s pretense was that he wanted to protect and unite the territories full of Germans that want to be part of fatherland and that were lost in WW1.
    - jcranmer 8y ago
      "If you give me the Ruhr, I won't ask for anything more." "If you give me Austria, I promise I'll stop there." "Only the Sudetenland. Last one, I promise." "Danzig... this is really, truly the last one, I swear."
  - Yizahi 8y ago
    LIE - The US fomented a coup in Ukraine LIE - an effort the Atlantic Council was deeply involved in LIE - the east of Ukraine has historically always been a part of Russia Highly subjective - my informal poll is those people wanted to be part of Russia (they tried to secede from Ukraine in 95). (other polls pre-war has shown no more than 50/50 pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian) LIE - the US and Nato have done nothing but make the situation worse, and justify Russian repression.
    - scottlocklin 8y ago
      Unlike you, I can provide citations for all of it. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excuse-for-ukraine-coup/ https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/02/phony-corruption-excus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-votes-to-back-independence-from-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/world/crimea-parliament-v... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO I can't provide a citation for east ukraine being part of Russia, as all the old maps simply list it as "russia." Even in the brief "independence" of 1917, the East (capital in Karkov) immediately went communist under Russian direction and proceeded to conquer the rest of the place, except for the Polish west, which came later.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  > Or maybe those were proportionate, even restrained responses to warmongering activities by the US, such as.... er... the Obama attempt at a diplomatic 'reset' with Russia perhaps? Maybe it was scrapping the Bush era defence shield plan that pushed them over the edge, or maybe cancelling sanctions against the Russian arms export agency was the last straw. Putin views NATO moving eastward as a threat. He's not totally insane to do so - Hitler nearly broke the USSR starting from the middle of Poland. If he had started from the middle of the Ukraine instead, the USSR might well have not survived. But that history only makes Putin not totally insane. He's still mostly nuts on this, because first, NATO is a defensive alliance. Second, there is exactly zero appetite in most of the NATO members for any kind of a major war - even a defensive war, I question whether they would actually fight the way the treaty requires them to. And third, the reason NATO is expanding is because those countries feel threatened by Russia and therefore want a big block of allies to protect them. They sought membership in NATO; NATO or the US didn't push them into it. If Russia were less aggressive, those countries would feel less need to join NATO.

atomical 8y ago

I'll take them with a grain of salt when you post a counter argument with numbers.

Yizahi 8y ago

Source may be biased but that doesn't change that Russia is country of majority warmongering idiots. Small minority who doesn't agree with this are either brainwashed or emigrate.