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I don't think the net failed us ... I think the 'net is maybe the only thing that's slowed this disaster down. Yes yes whatever about the disinformation campaig

by rusk 8y ago

I don't think the net failed us ... I think the 'net is maybe the only thing that's slowed this disaster down. Yes yes whatever about the disinformation campaign that allegedly influenced the vote, but misinformation has always been a tool in the political toolkit. What's different this time around is that the net provides the means to route around the official narrative and dig into what's going on. Yes, you might dig the wrong way and come up with bullshit but anyone that can evaluate information can figure this out, and once the honest and educated manage to get to grips with the non-official details then the net provides a means to mobilise. If anything it's politics has broken the 'net, not the other way round. But the net provides a means to save politics.

DanielBMarkham 8y ago
Interesting. If I understand each of us correctly, my position is that the internet has provided a ton of information and drama, just nothing of use to the general public. Your position is because of the vast amount of information, we can identify these problems and route around them. I can certainly see where you might be correct. I think the key question is this: does the emotional impact of all the noise outweigh the nuggets of useful information a person may find here or there? (And I use the term "noise" generously. A cynic would consider this a form camouflage) In a way, this is the discussion the net is having all over, right? Do you get more social control by creating these made-for-internet dramas that hide the actual important stuff? Or does the fact that the information can exist much easier now and be published instantaneously to millions easily overcome that? I'm with the "people decide based on emotion, then use reason to justify their decisions" group of folks, but that's only because I come at this from a sales/startup angle. It very well may be different in the political realm.
- rusk 8y ago
  I think anybody that's educated can filter out the noise usually and get at some element of the truth. This is an option that would have been mostly unavailable beforehand. Anybody that's easily swept up by rumours and bullshit was always just getting sucked in by the tabloids and the mainstream press anyway so their situation remains unchanged. What is particularly interesting in the case of Brexit, and perhaps tangential is how the Brexiteers keep getting caught out speaking out both sides of their mouths time after time. They make a deal in Brussels and then fly home and speak to factory workers in Grimsby contradicting that deal. It's reported immediately online and goes straight back to Brussels where they're "like really?".
  - DanielBMarkham 8y ago
    I'm going to disengage because I believe this is getting too far into local politics for me. However I want to make sure you understand my point. "...I think anybody that's educated can filter out the noise usually and get at some element of the truth...Anybody that's easily swept up by rumours and bullshit..." You understand that's not the way it works, right? This isn't an intelligence test. My point was about how humans make decisions, not how stupid people gossip and believe things they shouldn't. That's a great topic, but not my point. You don't educate or smart your way about of being human. It doesn't work like that. I used to love to discuss politics with folks, mainly because it was the one area in which really smart people believed really stupid things. It was -- and remains -- an excellent place to observe clanning and how the human mind works. (I stopped bringing it up, though, because as it turns out, text conversations have a completely different dynamic than in-person conversations.) Thanks for the chat!
    - rusk 8y ago
      Such blather
  - repolfx 8y ago
    how the Brexiteers keep getting caught out speaking out both sides of their mouths time after time. They make a deal in Brussels and then fly home and speak to factory workers in Grimsby contradicting that deal I'm not sure what events you're thinking of here, but no "Brexiteers" have been involved in negotiations for a long time. May went behind their backs and they all resigned, the cabinet has been dominated by Remainers like May ever since. The reason it's such a farce is because the entire process is being run end to end by people who desperately want to ensure leaving can never happen without actually being too obvious about it (they've failed at that too).
smoyer 8y ago
I think Brexit was a practice misinformation campaign ... getting Trump elected made use of the techniques that were found effective.
corney91 8y ago
I'm not entirely convinced that the net is the saviour you claim. For example, I'm British but hadn't seen most of these points until more than two years later: [1] Presumably I didn't see these adverts because I was categorised as a Remain voter, but I can't imagine what my opinion would be if every time I went to Facebook I saw "leave the EU to save the polar bears". I'd like to say I'd immediately search the truthfulness but, honestly, I've got better things to do with my life than google every comment I see online. The Internet provides a great way for information to be open, but not everything on the Internet is necessarily transparent. Argubly, this is a good reason for regulation on things like advertising to make it more transparent (although what that regulation is, I don't know) which I think would be a case of "politics saving the net". Of course, there's the "old way" of information being shared which is subject to failure too[2]. But a centralised and curated method like newspapers makes it easier to combat falsehoods. Overall, I do agree that the Internet is a great tool for information sharing and I think we're better with it, but it's not without its own issues. [1] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1059068463933743104.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1059068463933743104.html [2] https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
markvdb 8y ago
The net failing us is not about misinformation. It's about people being less in touch with other flesh and blood members of their species, and more into their own bubble of truths or "truths". People want to hear the fairytales they like. The internet as it exists today has certainly contributed to that.
- rusk 8y ago
  Thats society’s fault IMO or the lack thereof. In the 80s half the population voted in droves for it. Society is dead so spake the iron lady

by rusk 8y ago

DanielBMarkham 8y ago

Interesting. If I understand each of us correctly, my position is that the internet has provided a ton of information and drama, just nothing of use to the general public. Your position is because of the vast amount of information, we can identify these problems and route around them. I can certainly see where you might be correct. I think the key question is this: does the emotional impact of all the noise outweigh the nuggets of useful information a person may find here or there? (And I use the term "noise" generously. A cynic would consider this a form camouflage) In a way, this is the discussion the net is having all over, right? Do you get more social control by creating these made-for-internet dramas that hide the actual important stuff? Or does the fact that the information can exist much easier now and be published instantaneously to millions easily overcome that? I'm with the "people decide based on emotion, then use reason to justify their decisions" group of folks, but that's only because I come at this from a sales/startup angle. It very well may be different in the political realm.

rusk 8y ago
I think anybody that's educated can filter out the noise usually and get at some element of the truth. This is an option that would have been mostly unavailable beforehand. Anybody that's easily swept up by rumours and bullshit was always just getting sucked in by the tabloids and the mainstream press anyway so their situation remains unchanged. What is particularly interesting in the case of Brexit, and perhaps tangential is how the Brexiteers keep getting caught out speaking out both sides of their mouths time after time. They make a deal in Brussels and then fly home and speak to factory workers in Grimsby contradicting that deal. It's reported immediately online and goes straight back to Brussels where they're "like really?".
- DanielBMarkham 8y ago
  I'm going to disengage because I believe this is getting too far into local politics for me. However I want to make sure you understand my point. "...I think anybody that's educated can filter out the noise usually and get at some element of the truth...Anybody that's easily swept up by rumours and bullshit..." You understand that's not the way it works, right? This isn't an intelligence test. My point was about how humans make decisions, not how stupid people gossip and believe things they shouldn't. That's a great topic, but not my point. You don't educate or smart your way about of being human. It doesn't work like that. I used to love to discuss politics with folks, mainly because it was the one area in which really smart people believed really stupid things. It was -- and remains -- an excellent place to observe clanning and how the human mind works. (I stopped bringing it up, though, because as it turns out, text conversations have a completely different dynamic than in-person conversations.) Thanks for the chat!
  - rusk 8y ago
    Such blather
- repolfx 8y ago
  how the Brexiteers keep getting caught out speaking out both sides of their mouths time after time. They make a deal in Brussels and then fly home and speak to factory workers in Grimsby contradicting that deal I'm not sure what events you're thinking of here, but no "Brexiteers" have been involved in negotiations for a long time. May went behind their backs and they all resigned, the cabinet has been dominated by Remainers like May ever since. The reason it's such a farce is because the entire process is being run end to end by people who desperately want to ensure leaving can never happen without actually being too obvious about it (they've failed at that too).

smoyer 8y ago

I think Brexit was a practice misinformation campaign ... getting Trump elected made use of the techniques that were found effective.

corney91 8y ago

I'm not entirely convinced that the net is the saviour you claim. For example, I'm British but hadn't seen most of these points until more than two years later: [1] Presumably I didn't see these adverts because I was categorised as a Remain voter, but I can't imagine what my opinion would be if every time I went to Facebook I saw "leave the EU to save the polar bears". I'd like to say I'd immediately search the truthfulness but, honestly, I've got better things to do with my life than google every comment I see online. The Internet provides a great way for information to be open, but not everything on the Internet is necessarily transparent. Argubly, this is a good reason for regulation on things like advertising to make it more transparent (although what that regulation is, I don't know) which I think would be a case of "politics saving the net". Of course, there's the "old way" of information being shared which is subject to failure too[2]. But a centralised and curated method like newspapers makes it easier to combat falsehoods. Overall, I do agree that the Internet is a great tool for information sharing and I think we're better with it, but it's not without its own issues. [1] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1059068463933743104.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1059068463933743104.html [2] https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

markvdb 8y ago

The net failing us is not about misinformation. It's about people being less in touch with other flesh and blood members of their species, and more into their own bubble of truths or "truths". People want to hear the fairytales they like. The internet as it exists today has certainly contributed to that.

rusk 8y ago
Thats society’s fault IMO or the lack thereof. In the 80s half the population voted in droves for it. Society is dead so spake the iron lady