8 ms·

Texting Means Never Having to Say Goodbye

101 points by imartin2k 8y ago

btbuildem 8y ago
I appreciate the asynchronous mode of comunication that text messages afford. Conversations there do come to an end sometimes -- but usually that means a big change or end of the real-world connection between the two people messaging.
akeck 8y ago
An ex-friend and I never signed off. We had an ongoing conversation that died down to only me writing messages, and then I stopped. It's still there in WhatsApp. Frozen in time. (The person is fine and posts public updates on FB and elsewhere.)
- dajohnson89 8y ago
  This is a natural tendency of text-only conversations.
- elliotec 8y ago
  Was it the lack of response that made them an ex-friend?
  - kakarot 8y ago
    The lack of multiple responses over an extended period of time seems like as big a hint as you can get. If you're standing next to someone and they ignore your attempts at getting their attention, how long should you continue before finding something better to do?
    - dmortin 8y ago
      In this case it's better to remove that person from the contact list, isn't it? He knows in both cases he is ignored, but if he's removed as a contact then he at least knows he shouldn't send messages in vain.
      - kakarot 8y ago
        That seems more extreme than just becoming less than friends. Why tarnish a good rolodex? A contact list isn't a friend list.
        scarcely 8y ago
        Rolodex? What's next, a Filofax?
    - elliotec 8y ago
      I think the point of this article is the difference between standing next to someone and online conversations. While I agree that is a major hint, especially in certain cases (especially in the sense of the stalker-esque men hounding women through DMs on social media), I've had very long periods of non-communication with long-distance friends I still consider "close" that pick up much later, sometimes with multiple messages on either side with varying degrees of response.
      - kakarot 8y ago
        It just depends on the nature of the message. If one side is just amassing a list of things or a complete idea to digest on the recepient's own time, with the mutual understanding that people lead busy lives, it's a bit different than say, someone repeatedly ignoring a particular request or general attempts to start a live conversation.
dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
> A text conversation is never really over. And in some ways it never really gets started. I love texting. I love the ability to send little pings to people throughout the day. To share moments, etc. But at the same time, the complete proliferation of instant communication has left us with no place to have anything but the most base-level communication. > We try to negotiate the same kind of turn taking, but many of the cues we use to gauge whether a conversation is going well—or even just still going—are missing. That can be stressful. > as anyone who’s ever sent a vulnerable text knows, it can be jarring to put a message out into the world and get nothing back, leaving a message hanging in a void until the next time the conversation picks up. These lines and many others like it in this post are exactly why I created Pony [0]. Pony is a non-instant email platform that sends and receives messages once a day. Ever since my first communication online, the stressful and often difficult-to-navigate rhythms of instant, always-on contact made me wish there was a non-instant online medium so I could correspond without with some space to reflect and think. [0]: https://www.pony.gg https://www.pony.gg
- BucketSort 8y ago
  Look at this guys profile. He keeps spamming his service. This is poor taste dude.
  - dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
    I am talking about my service but I think it's unique and clearly relevant to the conversation. That it's on multiple on threads is because this topic is so prevalent right now. I'm trying to make a positive impact on people's lives by offering the type of communication platform no other company has ever been willing to try. Cheers!
    - BucketSort 8y ago
      No, you are jumping on threads one after the other to promote your product. This is going to backfire on you if you keep doing it.
    - dannyw 8y ago
romwell 8y ago
It really depends on whether you are having an actual realtime conversation with a person; that comes with expectations of full attention, immediate responses and usually has good-byes too. On the other hand, email or forum threads don't have good-byes either, and neither did many IRC chatrooms. IM used to be akin to a telephone conversation, now it's more like email chain. This is necessary, because we don't have short windows that we dedicate to being online anymore (during which the expectations are higher). If we treated all incoming messages as telephone calls, that'd take all our time. The result is that IM has a priority just above an email, but below everything else (phones calls, offline things happening, etc).
- dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
  But how can you not have a realtime conversation if every online medium is realtime and the only thing making it not realtime is maybe your self-control, or that your battery died? In this sense, I'm not aware of any non-realtime media (which is why I created one).
  - dmortin 8y ago
    > the only thing making it not realtime is maybe your self-control You could similarly ask how can people get any work done if they can also watch youtube videos all day? These days people do have to have self control, because all kinds of entertainment is just a click away, so people have to consciously set aside those to get things done.
    - dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
      > These days people do have to have self control, because all kinds of entertainment is just a click away, so people have to consciously set aside those to get things done. Oh definitely. I mean It's not that people don't have self control. The problem is exactly that: we have to constantly vigilantly exercise it. I think technology shouldn't make you constantly exercise self control or anything else. I mean, not unless you want to.
gaahrdner 8y ago
A.K.A. "ghosting" in online dating parlance
abhinai 8y ago
There was a time when everyone I knew was on Yahoo or MSN messenger. Then suddenly everyone stopped using messengers. The biggest problem with messengers was synchronous communication. Once someone started talking to you, you pretty much had to stay glued to the computer until the conversation ended. It was great for some conversations but a big inconvenience for the most part. Most people started hiding behind the invisible mode until there came a time when everyone was invisible and you didn't have anyone to talk to. Next gen. communication tools like fb messenger, WhatsApp etc. solved this problem by making the default expectation asynchronous. It was a huge step in evolution of messaging.
- dmortin 8y ago
  > Once someone started talking to you, you pretty much had to stay glued to the computer until the conversation ended. Why? Were there no chat history in those tools? Couldn't you just sign off if you had other things to do, and answer later in the same conversation?
  - viraptor 8y ago
    It was a social expectation rather than a technology thing. Sure, you could leave a conversation and restart it later. But that was similar to physically walking away from someone. Unless you're finished or really have to do something else, you usually don't walk away.
    - jacobolus 8y ago
      I had asynchronous chat conversations on AIM/Yahoo/MSN/GChat/etc. with dozens of people for over a decade; it was normal and expected for conversations to be as synchronous or asynchronous as either participant wanted.
      - lovehashbrowns 8y ago
        Just to add another anecdote; I had the same experience as viraptor. It was expected that you said bye if you were leaving, and the ghosting equivalent was to be online but not reply to a message. I knew a few people that used it async but most were not like that.
elliotec 8y ago
I have many long distance friends that I keep in touch with and have for years. Some I haven't seen IRL in nearly a decade. Looking now, almost none of our text conversations have any sign of "goodbye," sometimes picking up even months later on the same topic as the last thing we were discussing. Very interesting. Side note though, my favorite part of this article, ironically, is the part in the first paragraph which she illustrates as something young people will dismiss: That Salt Lake City has the longest city blocks in the nation. I have lived here my whole life and have always known we have mega huge blocks, but wasn't aware they were the biggest in the nation, and it appears they could be the biggest in the world. This has interesting implications[0] and as someone very interested in urban planning I was taken aback by this and thought it funny that she used it as an example of something people find dismissable. [0] https://www.governing.com/columns/urban-notebook/gov-salt-lake-city-extra-wide-streets.html https://www.governing.com/columns/urban-notebook/gov-salt-la...
jaysonelliot 8y ago
This was a problem as soon as ICQ and other instant messengers appeared in the '90s. Now, the issue seems to have resolved itself thanks to the emoji. Whether it's a Slack or a text, the appearance of a thumbs up emoji is a friendly, succinct way to say "we're done now."
- unixhero 8y ago
  Yeah. Thumbs up is the mildest form of rudeness imho.
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  I believe it's a particularity but french speaking people use `++` to end the conversation. It comes from `À plus` which roughly translate to `See you later` but uses plus sign because of the sound. It's even funnier because you used to write a single `+` then the other party replied with `++` but that usage has fallen and I only see the double plus sign these days.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    +++ Was the same command to take an AT compatible modem from data mode to command mode and cause it to disconnect. Are you sure that’s not where it originated?
    - johnchristopher 8y ago
      Yeah, it was used on IRC and then on messenger/AIM/ICQ by kids who couldn't have known about such commands. There are some slight variations around like "pluche" for comical effects. That and the fact I never saw it outside french speaking chats. There could be a tiny chance that it comes from something else but that's highly unlikely.
dheera 8y ago
The one I hate is the "are you around?" / "are you there now?" type message. I hate synchronous online communication. Just ask the question, and I'll respond some hours later when I have time. If you want synchronous, schedule me in person.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Nah. Some questions are time relevant. I need an answer before x, unless y, if z. I don't want to write all the caveats every unnecessary time. Then how long do I sit around in case you certainly, maybe, probably, possibly got it? Since texts and earliest days of ICQ just about everyone I know opens with ping, answer with ack or nack / silence. Super easy to decide whether to even ask... :)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dheera 8y ago
    Well in general it's always a nack when I get that kind of message. I don't want to be pressured into starting a synchronous conversation if I don't know what the conversation is going to be about. "Hey got a minute?" => no "Hey got a minute for A?" => yes "Hey got a minute for B?" => no
    - wool_gather 8y ago
      Agree, and a key point here being that the colloquial "minute" can be a very different actual amount of time for A and B.
- scarface74 8y ago
  What I hate is when a coworker starts a conversation with “hey” in our Slack group and waits for me to respond. If they just tell me what they want, I can decide when to answer the question and whether it requires me to do research or go into a long explanation.
fatnoah 8y ago
This was one of the challenges my company faced when building a product that enabled SMS as a support channel. SMS conversations never "end" in the way that webchats do and also have a different ebb-and-flow. Completing a "call" involves spurts of near real-time messaging along with large time gaps (hours or days). Our early customers also spent a lot of time convincing their own customers that they were talking to real humans and not bots. Traditional call-center metrics were tough to apply though CSAT improvements were dramatic and almost instantaneous. Despite the lack of features compared to web chat, people really responded to SMS. I'm sure that was due to convenience (people are in their SMS/messaging client anyway) and that our customers staffed the lines with real people, rather than bots.

101 points by imartin2k 8y ago

I appreciate the asynchronous mode of comunication that text messages afford. Conversations there do come to an end sometimes -- but usually that means a big change or end of the real-world connection between the two people messaging.

akeck 8y ago

An ex-friend and I never signed off. We had an ongoing conversation that died down to only me writing messages, and then I stopped. It's still there in WhatsApp. Frozen in time. (The person is fine and posts public updates on FB and elsewhere.)

dajohnson89 8y ago
This is a natural tendency of text-only conversations.
elliotec 8y ago
Was it the lack of response that made them an ex-friend?
- kakarot 8y ago
  The lack of multiple responses over an extended period of time seems like as big a hint as you can get. If you're standing next to someone and they ignore your attempts at getting their attention, how long should you continue before finding something better to do?
  - dmortin 8y ago
    In this case it's better to remove that person from the contact list, isn't it? He knows in both cases he is ignored, but if he's removed as a contact then he at least knows he shouldn't send messages in vain.
    - kakarot 8y ago
      That seems more extreme than just becoming less than friends. Why tarnish a good rolodex? A contact list isn't a friend list.
      - scarcely 8y ago
        Rolodex? What's next, a Filofax?
  - elliotec 8y ago
    I think the point of this article is the difference between standing next to someone and online conversations. While I agree that is a major hint, especially in certain cases (especially in the sense of the stalker-esque men hounding women through DMs on social media), I've had very long periods of non-communication with long-distance friends I still consider "close" that pick up much later, sometimes with multiple messages on either side with varying degrees of response.
    - kakarot 8y ago
      It just depends on the nature of the message. If one side is just amassing a list of things or a complete idea to digest on the recepient's own time, with the mutual understanding that people lead busy lives, it's a bit different than say, someone repeatedly ignoring a particular request or general attempts to start a live conversation.

dmitryminkovsky 8y ago

> A text conversation is never really over. And in some ways it never really gets started. I love texting. I love the ability to send little pings to people throughout the day. To share moments, etc. But at the same time, the complete proliferation of instant communication has left us with no place to have anything but the most base-level communication. > We try to negotiate the same kind of turn taking, but many of the cues we use to gauge whether a conversation is going well—or even just still going—are missing. That can be stressful. > as anyone who’s ever sent a vulnerable text knows, it can be jarring to put a message out into the world and get nothing back, leaving a message hanging in a void until the next time the conversation picks up. These lines and many others like it in this post are exactly why I created Pony [0]. Pony is a non-instant email platform that sends and receives messages once a day. Ever since my first communication online, the stressful and often difficult-to-navigate rhythms of instant, always-on contact made me wish there was a non-instant online medium so I could correspond without with some space to reflect and think. [0]: https://www.pony.gg https://www.pony.gg

BucketSort 8y ago
Look at this guys profile. He keeps spamming his service. This is poor taste dude.
- dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
  I am talking about my service but I think it's unique and clearly relevant to the conversation. That it's on multiple on threads is because this topic is so prevalent right now. I'm trying to make a positive impact on people's lives by offering the type of communication platform no other company has ever been willing to try. Cheers!
  - BucketSort 8y ago
    No, you are jumping on threads one after the other to promote your product. This is going to backfire on you if you keep doing it.
  - dannyw 8y ago

romwell 8y ago

It really depends on whether you are having an actual realtime conversation with a person; that comes with expectations of full attention, immediate responses and usually has good-byes too. On the other hand, email or forum threads don't have good-byes either, and neither did many IRC chatrooms. IM used to be akin to a telephone conversation, now it's more like email chain. This is necessary, because we don't have short windows that we dedicate to being online anymore (during which the expectations are higher). If we treated all incoming messages as telephone calls, that'd take all our time. The result is that IM has a priority just above an email, but below everything else (phones calls, offline things happening, etc).

dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
But how can you not have a realtime conversation if every online medium is realtime and the only thing making it not realtime is maybe your self-control, or that your battery died? In this sense, I'm not aware of any non-realtime media (which is why I created one).
- dmortin 8y ago
  > the only thing making it not realtime is maybe your self-control You could similarly ask how can people get any work done if they can also watch youtube videos all day? These days people do have to have self control, because all kinds of entertainment is just a click away, so people have to consciously set aside those to get things done.
  - dmitryminkovsky 8y ago
    > These days people do have to have self control, because all kinds of entertainment is just a click away, so people have to consciously set aside those to get things done. Oh definitely. I mean It's not that people don't have self control. The problem is exactly that: we have to constantly vigilantly exercise it. I think technology shouldn't make you constantly exercise self control or anything else. I mean, not unless you want to.

gaahrdner 8y ago

A.K.A. "ghosting" in online dating parlance

abhinai 8y ago

There was a time when everyone I knew was on Yahoo or MSN messenger. Then suddenly everyone stopped using messengers. The biggest problem with messengers was synchronous communication. Once someone started talking to you, you pretty much had to stay glued to the computer until the conversation ended. It was great for some conversations but a big inconvenience for the most part. Most people started hiding behind the invisible mode until there came a time when everyone was invisible and you didn't have anyone to talk to. Next gen. communication tools like fb messenger, WhatsApp etc. solved this problem by making the default expectation asynchronous. It was a huge step in evolution of messaging.

dmortin 8y ago
> Once someone started talking to you, you pretty much had to stay glued to the computer until the conversation ended. Why? Were there no chat history in those tools? Couldn't you just sign off if you had other things to do, and answer later in the same conversation?
- viraptor 8y ago
  It was a social expectation rather than a technology thing. Sure, you could leave a conversation and restart it later. But that was similar to physically walking away from someone. Unless you're finished or really have to do something else, you usually don't walk away.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    I had asynchronous chat conversations on AIM/Yahoo/MSN/GChat/etc. with dozens of people for over a decade; it was normal and expected for conversations to be as synchronous or asynchronous as either participant wanted.
    - lovehashbrowns 8y ago
      Just to add another anecdote; I had the same experience as viraptor. It was expected that you said bye if you were leaving, and the ghosting equivalent was to be online but not reply to a message. I knew a few people that used it async but most were not like that.

elliotec 8y ago

I have many long distance friends that I keep in touch with and have for years. Some I haven't seen IRL in nearly a decade. Looking now, almost none of our text conversations have any sign of "goodbye," sometimes picking up even months later on the same topic as the last thing we were discussing. Very interesting. Side note though, my favorite part of this article, ironically, is the part in the first paragraph which she illustrates as something young people will dismiss: That Salt Lake City has the longest city blocks in the nation. I have lived here my whole life and have always known we have mega huge blocks, but wasn't aware they were the biggest in the nation, and it appears they could be the biggest in the world. This has interesting implications[0] and as someone very interested in urban planning I was taken aback by this and thought it funny that she used it as an example of something people find dismissable. [0] https://www.governing.com/columns/urban-notebook/gov-salt-lake-city-extra-wide-streets.html https://www.governing.com/columns/urban-notebook/gov-salt-la...

jaysonelliot 8y ago

This was a problem as soon as ICQ and other instant messengers appeared in the '90s. Now, the issue seems to have resolved itself thanks to the emoji. Whether it's a Slack or a text, the appearance of a thumbs up emoji is a friendly, succinct way to say "we're done now."

unixhero 8y ago
Yeah. Thumbs up is the mildest form of rudeness imho.
johnchristopher 8y ago
I believe it's a particularity but french speaking people use `++` to end the conversation. It comes from `À plus` which roughly translate to `See you later` but uses plus sign because of the sound. It's even funnier because you used to write a single `+` then the other party replied with `++` but that usage has fallen and I only see the double plus sign these days.
- scarface74 8y ago
  +++ Was the same command to take an AT compatible modem from data mode to command mode and cause it to disconnect. Are you sure that’s not where it originated?
  - johnchristopher 8y ago
    Yeah, it was used on IRC and then on messenger/AIM/ICQ by kids who couldn't have known about such commands. There are some slight variations around like "pluche" for comical effects. That and the fact I never saw it outside french speaking chats. There could be a tiny chance that it comes from something else but that's highly unlikely.

dheera 8y ago

The one I hate is the "are you around?" / "are you there now?" type message. I hate synchronous online communication. Just ask the question, and I'll respond some hours later when I have time. If you want synchronous, schedule me in person.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Nah. Some questions are time relevant. I need an answer before x, unless y, if z. I don't want to write all the caveats every unnecessary time. Then how long do I sit around in case you certainly, maybe, probably, possibly got it? Since texts and earliest days of ICQ just about everyone I know opens with ping, answer with ack or nack / silence. Super easy to decide whether to even ask... :)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dheera 8y ago
  Well in general it's always a nack when I get that kind of message. I don't want to be pressured into starting a synchronous conversation if I don't know what the conversation is going to be about. "Hey got a minute?" => no "Hey got a minute for A?" => yes "Hey got a minute for B?" => no
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Agree, and a key point here being that the colloquial "minute" can be a very different actual amount of time for A and B.
scarface74 8y ago
What I hate is when a coworker starts a conversation with “hey” in our Slack group and waits for me to respond. If they just tell me what they want, I can decide when to answer the question and whether it requires me to do research or go into a long explanation.

fatnoah 8y ago

This was one of the challenges my company faced when building a product that enabled SMS as a support channel. SMS conversations never "end" in the way that webchats do and also have a different ebb-and-flow. Completing a "call" involves spurts of near real-time messaging along with large time gaps (hours or days). Our early customers also spent a lot of time convincing their own customers that they were talking to real humans and not bots. Traditional call-center metrics were tough to apply though CSAT improvements were dramatic and almost instantaneous. Despite the lack of features compared to web chat, people really responded to SMS. I'm sure that was due to convenience (people are in their SMS/messaging client anyway) and that our customers staffed the lines with real people, rather than bots.