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The use of the word "low caste" is in quite mean considering "poor" would be more appropriate. Just as Black or Native American would be a poor substitute for

The use of the word "low caste" is in quite mean considering "poor" would be more appropriate. Just as Black or Native American would be a poor substitute for poor american. Or Roma/Eskimo/Greenlander/Sami for Europe Especially considering that the current prime minister and president of India are from so called backward communities. India has come a long way in social development and using the "caste card" is quite out of taste. The word "Caste" is of European origin and does not have a proper native equivalent. The "caste system" itself is again a European concept imported into India to aid the colonial powers in their divide and rule. Unlike the persecution of the Native Americans, Blacks, Jews or Aboriginal which were systematic state run pogroms often in democracies. The fate of the "low caste" can be attributed to the fact that they were the most exploited, often to the point of death or slavery under colonial rule. While the so called "Upper caste" enjoyed second rung positions as peons, clerks and teachers. This experience is universal in the other colonies like Rwanda, Syria or Iraq where the words "Tribes" or "Clans" have come to substitute "Caste". It must be noted that the newly independent India gave all Indians of both sexes the right to vote and went on further to provide "reservations" the equivalent of "affirmative action". This was long before the black American even got the right to vote. Less said about Europe the better, the "Roma" still get rounded up and "deported" even though as EU citizens they have the right to mobility. "Caste" is a powerful tool for the unscrupulous politician inside India. The excuse of colonial apologists or more markedly the evangelists (if they are not the former) outside India. Caste a European concept so prominent in the family names of Americans and Europeans, has today become synonymous with India thanks to the relentless propaganda of the colonialists/evangelists.

npmn 8y ago
It is not out of taste. Caste System(Jati System) though weakened still alive and kicking in India. (Dalits) Lowest caste layer in India is still subjugated to things like Cow vigilantism, Honour killing, Social boycott, Caste clashes and discrimination in various/all forms of life. It is interesting to note that Dalits are almost always on the receiving end of these issues. Giving example of the Prime Minister/President is equivalent to saying since Barack Obama is the president of US, black discrimination. PS: I belong to the so called Lower Caste in India and I have myself experienced instances of subtle/blatant discrimination. Thankfully haven't experienced anything serious yet, maybe because I became an Software Engineer and now live in a major city, thanks to the affirmative actions adopted by India, but poorer strata of lower caste living in tier-3 cities/villages face a lot of cases of discrimination even today. While India has a long way in social development, it still has a long to go. This narrative of bashing Europeans/Outsiders/Pakistanis for anything negative has to stop. Jati System has been in practise for thousands of years now.
- kevhito 8y ago
  > I became an Software Engineer and now live in a major city, thanks to the affirmative actions adopted by India... You mean from reservations in school / university admissions? Or does that even extend to private employment? Is there widespread resentment? I'm really curious about the parallels (or not) between racism in the US and caste in India, esp. affirmative action. The US never really went all-in on AA like India did with reservations -- more like pretending if we mostly ignore race then racism will go away -- but it seems like neither approach has really gotten to good place (yet).
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    If you’re interested there’s an interview on the Brown Pundits Podcast, “The Life and Views of a Middle Class Indian Dalit”, > In this episode, I had a conversation with a middle-class Dalit who lives in Gujarat. For me, Dalits are people who are reported on, written on, people who I hear about spoken of (usually sympathetically). But I wanted to talk to a Dalit who was a university educated middle-class person, to zero in on the essential aspect of being SC in India today. At least urban India. > One interesting observation is that his own experience in India is filled with slights, but not day to day oppression. It doesn’t seem the lot of Dalits in urban India is anything like that of black Americans during Jim Crow. He seemed to assume that America had solved much of its race problem and that that’s what Dalits should aspire to. Curiously, Americans at this point, at least on the Left, perceive our racial problems as dire. https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/03/06/browncast-podcast-episode-20-conversation-with-a-middle-class-dalit/ https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/03/06/browncast-podcast-ep... Podcast links https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/brown-pundits/id1439007022 https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/brown-pundits/id14390070... http://brownpundits.libsyn.com/the-life-and-views-of-a-middle-class-indian-dalit http://brownpundits.libsyn.com/the-life-and-views-of-a-middl... https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/razib-khan/brown-pundits-podcast/e/59244063 https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/razib-khan/brown-pundits-po... https://player.fm/series/brown-pundits/the-life-and-views-of-a-middle-class-indian-dalit https://player.fm/series/brown-pundits/the-life-and-views-of...
  - npmn 8y ago
    Yes, there are registrations in university admissions, which is the one I used. It does not extend to private employment. Regarding the resentment part, yes, people have resentments against reservations, though now even higher caste groups have started demanding reservation - this means the community will call for strike, stop trains, buses to get the attention of the government. OBC reservations in India were started in 1980 after a similar country wide strikes.
kevhito 8y ago
I'm very confused by your comment, and I hope you can clarify. I'm familiar with the colonial/European origin of the "cast system", but having been to India a few times and studied/read a bit, saying that the word has no proper native equivalent (to be blunt) seems both irrelevant and kind of disingenuous. Regardless of the word's origin or colonial reasons, it seems clear that caste-related issues are very visible and very present in India today. Do you agree? You seem to admit as much. But you also seem to downplay the entire existence of caste. I'm really not familiar with the tribe/clan system in Iraq and Syria. My experience in some other former british and french colonies made it clear how the colonial system benefited from or even created and promoted ethnic rivalries, racism, tribalism -- yes absolutely -- but none of those situations seemed to really be a direct analogue of India's caste system. Do most people in India think of caste pretty much the same way as Americans think of ethnicity or racism? Maybe you can also talk a bit more about Modi and his "low caste" background, because I've been curious about this myself. How much do you make of his "caste" as part his political identity? Do you see this as a sign that the caste system is dead/irrelevant/never-existed? Or that the low castes have triumphed? Or is he a pawn/token in a bigger game?
- naruvimama 8y ago
  If one has Anglo-Saxon family names like Smith, Farmer, Clark or the Germanic equivalent like Meyer, Schumacher etc, it is often the profession handed down father to son. In India this is termed the JATTI, and is considered the nearest equivalent of the caste. If India was the only country where "caste" is a phenomenon, at least we should have a native name for it. People often claim Varna to be the equivalent, but you almost never hear the word "Varna" being used. The reason is "William Jones", who synthesized the Indian caste system by selectively digging deep into the scriptures. Caste today is essentially an economic mobility problem and should have a quick death. But by constantly casting it as a social problem people make sure it is kept alive. The main beneficiaries are 1. Politicians 2. Evangelists 3. Otherwise wealthy Indians who have managed to carve out a quota from the reservation system meant to benefit the backward communities. 4. Used as a stick by the west 5. Naxal and sociologists Modi unlike Obama isn't a one show man. Nor is he just the face of the party. He has won again and again, and continues to have huge public support. Goes to prove ones caste isn't important to the public. Caste is also extremely regional, the names are meaningless outside. In the state that I come from TN, the vast majority of the people have gotten rid of the their family names for the last 2-3 generations for the sake of social equality, yet have a 70% reservation. Understandably JATTI (rather than caste) is significant among the poor because it is their primary social security. So fishermen, metal workers, farmers, weavers etc form a strong community within their profession. Like a lab rat that has been deliberately infected and the conditions made worse so it can be studied. The "caste system" that should have a natural death, continues to live on thanks to our heros.
barry-cotter 8y ago
What do you mean caste is a European concept? Hinduism has the four varnas and Dalits. How are those European concepts? Europeans didn’t invent varnas, the avarna, Hindu purity concepts, or the jatis. The jatis are Islam so for Europeans to have invented them would be quite impressive.

npmn 8y ago

It is not out of taste. Caste System(Jati System) though weakened still alive and kicking in India. (Dalits) Lowest caste layer in India is still subjugated to things like Cow vigilantism, Honour killing, Social boycott, Caste clashes and discrimination in various/all forms of life. It is interesting to note that Dalits are almost always on the receiving end of these issues. Giving example of the Prime Minister/President is equivalent to saying since Barack Obama is the president of US, black discrimination. PS: I belong to the so called Lower Caste in India and I have myself experienced instances of subtle/blatant discrimination. Thankfully haven't experienced anything serious yet, maybe because I became an Software Engineer and now live in a major city, thanks to the affirmative actions adopted by India, but poorer strata of lower caste living in tier-3 cities/villages face a lot of cases of discrimination even today. While India has a long way in social development, it still has a long to go. This narrative of bashing Europeans/Outsiders/Pakistanis for anything negative has to stop. Jati System has been in practise for thousands of years now.

kevhito 8y ago
> I became an Software Engineer and now live in a major city, thanks to the affirmative actions adopted by India... You mean from reservations in school / university admissions? Or does that even extend to private employment? Is there widespread resentment? I'm really curious about the parallels (or not) between racism in the US and caste in India, esp. affirmative action. The US never really went all-in on AA like India did with reservations -- more like pretending if we mostly ignore race then racism will go away -- but it seems like neither approach has really gotten to good place (yet).
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  If you’re interested there’s an interview on the Brown Pundits Podcast, “The Life and Views of a Middle Class Indian Dalit”, > In this episode, I had a conversation with a middle-class Dalit who lives in Gujarat. For me, Dalits are people who are reported on, written on, people who I hear about spoken of (usually sympathetically). But I wanted to talk to a Dalit who was a university educated middle-class person, to zero in on the essential aspect of being SC in India today. At least urban India. > One interesting observation is that his own experience in India is filled with slights, but not day to day oppression. It doesn’t seem the lot of Dalits in urban India is anything like that of black Americans during Jim Crow. He seemed to assume that America had solved much of its race problem and that that’s what Dalits should aspire to. Curiously, Americans at this point, at least on the Left, perceive our racial problems as dire. https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/03/06/browncast-podcast-episode-20-conversation-with-a-middle-class-dalit/ https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/03/06/browncast-podcast-ep... Podcast links https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/brown-pundits/id1439007022 https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/brown-pundits/id14390070... http://brownpundits.libsyn.com/the-life-and-views-of-a-middle-class-indian-dalit http://brownpundits.libsyn.com/the-life-and-views-of-a-middl... https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/razib-khan/brown-pundits-podcast/e/59244063 https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/razib-khan/brown-pundits-po... https://player.fm/series/brown-pundits/the-life-and-views-of-a-middle-class-indian-dalit https://player.fm/series/brown-pundits/the-life-and-views-of...
- npmn 8y ago
  Yes, there are registrations in university admissions, which is the one I used. It does not extend to private employment. Regarding the resentment part, yes, people have resentments against reservations, though now even higher caste groups have started demanding reservation - this means the community will call for strike, stop trains, buses to get the attention of the government. OBC reservations in India were started in 1980 after a similar country wide strikes.

kevhito 8y ago

I'm very confused by your comment, and I hope you can clarify. I'm familiar with the colonial/European origin of the "cast system", but having been to India a few times and studied/read a bit, saying that the word has no proper native equivalent (to be blunt) seems both irrelevant and kind of disingenuous. Regardless of the word's origin or colonial reasons, it seems clear that caste-related issues are very visible and very present in India today. Do you agree? You seem to admit as much. But you also seem to downplay the entire existence of caste. I'm really not familiar with the tribe/clan system in Iraq and Syria. My experience in some other former british and french colonies made it clear how the colonial system benefited from or even created and promoted ethnic rivalries, racism, tribalism -- yes absolutely -- but none of those situations seemed to really be a direct analogue of India's caste system. Do most people in India think of caste pretty much the same way as Americans think of ethnicity or racism? Maybe you can also talk a bit more about Modi and his "low caste" background, because I've been curious about this myself. How much do you make of his "caste" as part his political identity? Do you see this as a sign that the caste system is dead/irrelevant/never-existed? Or that the low castes have triumphed? Or is he a pawn/token in a bigger game?

naruvimama 8y ago
If one has Anglo-Saxon family names like Smith, Farmer, Clark or the Germanic equivalent like Meyer, Schumacher etc, it is often the profession handed down father to son. In India this is termed the JATTI, and is considered the nearest equivalent of the caste. If India was the only country where "caste" is a phenomenon, at least we should have a native name for it. People often claim Varna to be the equivalent, but you almost never hear the word "Varna" being used. The reason is "William Jones", who synthesized the Indian caste system by selectively digging deep into the scriptures. Caste today is essentially an economic mobility problem and should have a quick death. But by constantly casting it as a social problem people make sure it is kept alive. The main beneficiaries are 1. Politicians 2. Evangelists 3. Otherwise wealthy Indians who have managed to carve out a quota from the reservation system meant to benefit the backward communities. 4. Used as a stick by the west 5. Naxal and sociologists Modi unlike Obama isn't a one show man. Nor is he just the face of the party. He has won again and again, and continues to have huge public support. Goes to prove ones caste isn't important to the public. Caste is also extremely regional, the names are meaningless outside. In the state that I come from TN, the vast majority of the people have gotten rid of the their family names for the last 2-3 generations for the sake of social equality, yet have a 70% reservation. Understandably JATTI (rather than caste) is significant among the poor because it is their primary social security. So fishermen, metal workers, farmers, weavers etc form a strong community within their profession. Like a lab rat that has been deliberately infected and the conditions made worse so it can be studied. The "caste system" that should have a natural death, continues to live on thanks to our heros.

barry-cotter 8y ago

What do you mean caste is a European concept? Hinduism has the four varnas and Dalits. How are those European concepts? Europeans didn’t invent varnas, the avarna, Hindu purity concepts, or the jatis. The jatis are Islam so for Europeans to have invented them would be quite impressive.