6 ms·

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their

by crux_ 16y ago

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...

yalurker 16y ago
"I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive." I'll venture a guess: because many of us find it incredibly tiring and annoying to have to constantly stop and think "is there any possible way the following sentence could be interpreted as prejudiced against any group?" when communicating. If person A says something non-sexual and person B finds a way to make it so (ie "that's what she said") we think person B is the dirty minded one, not A. However if person A says something non-racial and person B finds a way to make it so, we act like A has committed a grave offense and needs to apologize. Too many people in America can't look at an ink-blot without seeing sexism or racism or discrimination of some stripe. Being "too sensitive" is often just causing controversy or problems where none needed to exist. It also makes it so that legitimate discrimination is harder to notice because it gets lost in a sea of false accusations. The tl;dr is: save the outrage for legitimate discrimination, don't waste time & energy trying to manufacture it everywhere
- crux_ 16y ago
  Do you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    While there are a number of telling studies and statistics relating to gender issues, I think there is enough missing information that it isn't really possible to say much of anything intelligent on the subject. Given that we literally can't even tell the difference between a mental illness and a physical illness much of the time, I don't think science is ready to put a number on the percentage of the entrepreneurship gender gap that's attributable to sexism. For all we know it could be due to social factors or biological factors that are so non-obvious that no one has even thought of them yet.
    - crux_ 16y ago
      Statistics and studies will tell you information about the source of a gender gap. However, things like: * porn passed around chatrooms * rape jokes around the water cooler * comments on women's attractiveness every time one leaves the room, or every time a photo is posted online. * etc don't really need statistics, do they?
      - Alex3917 16y ago
        "don't really need statistics, do they?" I know plenty of women who would have no problem with any of the above. These things happen at some startups, don't happen at others, some women wouldn't want a workplace like this, others would enjoy it. And this is just one of many, many factors. Again, without more information you can't really say anything intelligent.
        crux_ 16y ago
        If your definition of "sexism" is something that all women would have a problem with, then by your definition there's no such thing as sexism anyway.
      - steveklabnik 16y ago
        I know plenty of women that look at porn, one female friend continually makes jokes about raping me, and if you don't think that women talk about men when they're not around... Not that I totally disagree with you, and most of my peer group is under 30. Just saying.
        crux_ 16y ago
        > I know plenty of women that look at porn, one female friend continually makes jokes about raping me, and if you don't think that women talk about men when they're not around... Note: I'm talking about in professional settings. p.s.: watch out for your friend. ;)
        16y ago
  - stonemetal 16y ago
    Yes, I believe that among developers in general and software startups in particular you will find an average to below average number of people with a sexism problem. You will however find an above average number of people who a) can't take a joke b) are somewhat bone headed in making inappropriate jokes. c) people who fall in to categories A and B at the same time.
    - crux_ 16y ago
      Let's take category (b). If a joke is truly inappropriate, is it really being a wet blanket to speak up about it?
      - stonemetal 16y ago
        People believe lots of different things. What is inappropriate to say in front of one person is not inappropriate to say in front of another. I believe that given their target audience nothing in the post was inappropriate. The slight but vocal response would seem to back that claim. To tell you the truth I must be so far in category B that I still don't understand the protest. Man has been used as a synonym for human for as long as I can remember. That would make men being the plural of man a synonym for people.
        CWuestefeld 16y ago
        To be completely fair, the original ad that was referenced really was looking exclusively for males. But does this mean that we should avoid all references to a past in which people were less enlightened? Must we pretend that the world was never that way, or pretend that everything that happened in that world was evil because of it? Those who jump on the slightest whisper that men and women, or people of different races, or cultures, or whatever, might be different in some ways are deluding themselves. That's not to say that we can put a value on any of these differences, nor that these differences are any more than statistical tendencies and not applicable to individuals.
  - axod 16y ago
    No. It absolutely does not IMHO. Our work just isn't appealing to most women.
    - crux_ 16y ago
      Our work, or our culture? I'm going to say it's the latter, given that these aspects of it aren't appealing to me either.
      - axod 16y ago
        I'm a male. I don't give a flying fuck about 'culture'. There is no culture. It matters not a jot to me. It never has. Why should it??? I grew up hacking away on my own in my bedroom floor hunched in front of a PC making raycasting demos at 4am. WTF has culture got to do with me doing that??? Are you trying to say that I started programming because I was embraced by some culture??? Are you saying that women are put off solely because of this mythical culture you speak of? Grow up. Once you have a few kids, you learn that most differences in the sexes are genetic. Women enjoy communicating. They're social beings on the whole. Sitting talking to a computer does not appeal. This is not rocket science. It's not environmental. It's hard wiring. Women = nurturing, communication. Men = hunt, build. If you can't see that, I'm not sure what hope there is for you.
        crux_ 16y ago
        > It's hard wiring. Women = nurturing, communication. Men = hunt, build. Let's ignore all the mountains of evidence to the contrary and say that, on average, you are absolutely correct. Have you read Harrison Bergeron? Go on, it's easy to find on google. I'll wait. Okay, done? Good. Now think about this: No matter how correct you may be about genetic predestination, your sexist attitudes, and the actions you take based upon those assumptions and beliefs, create a deep moral wrong against any woman who dares to be exceptional. Get it now, you fucking jackass?
        axod 16y ago
        Yeah. Because womens brains are exactly identical to mens brains. Same with their bodies. In fact I can't tell men apart from women. They're biologically identical! Have you actually had any interactions with real women?
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  I understand your sentiment, but who gets to decide what is legitimate discrimination, and what is not? Surely, it should be a compromise. Let's take discrimination out of the picture, and look at a less contentious example. In a relationship, how often does saying "you're overreacting, just calm down" get someone to calm down? The alternative is to, perhaps, listen to the complaint, rather than dismissing it immediately. Finally, let me point out that there's an interesting systems thing going on here. Imagine you're raised / cultured in a system that is stacked in your favour. Would you notice it, or would you just notice that there are these annoying people who keep complaining about nothing?
loire280 16y ago
Anyone who is offended by a sexist title (this one is an apt historical reference as well) is probably going to have a problem in a startup where employees "[t]ell jokes that would make sailors blush". I bet a fair number of those jokes are sexist, too. This may be an effective filter for a sexual harassment lawsuit.
- crux_ 16y ago
  It's not so much "offended" as the fact that I do not like what developer culture has become. Speaking up about it seems to be a small way to create some change in that culture. If I keep quiet, then the hive-minded sausage-fest will march on, assuming I share its beliefs. On the other hand, speaking up about it really is just tilting at windmills, and incredibly frustrating each time.
  - axod 16y ago
    Are you going to make the fashion world more welcoming of straight males as well?
    - crux_ 16y ago
      If I were in the fashion world and felt that was an issue, why not? I'm not a fucking wallflower.
      - axod 16y ago
        I think you missed the point. It's not that the fashion world is not welcoming of straight men, it's that most straight men don't care about being in the fashion world.
        crux_ 16y ago
        It doesn't matter. If the fashion world were shitting all over straight men, it would be wrong whether it was one straight guy looking to make it as a designer or a hundred thousand.
ryanwaggoner 16y ago
Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?
- crux_ 16y ago
  They chose the headline; I did not -- and it seems pretty clear from more than just the headline that the AdGrok folks value anti-PC posturing quite highly. If it were me choosing the headline, and I had a desire to reference Shackleton's journey, what's wrong with "Wanted for hazardous journey: [...]"?
  - ryanwaggoner 16y ago
    First, point to anything else in that blog post that indicates any kind of "anti-PC posturing". Specifically anything that reveals any kind of gender bias. I'm guessing that you can't without revealing some gender biases of your own, but try me. Second, there's a difference between "anti-PC" and anti-equality. For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" because I think running around mincing your words in a (pointless and futile) attempt to avoid offending anyone is cowardly, but that doesn't mean that I hate minorities or am against equality. It just means that I think "political correctness" is stupid. If you're offended by my opinions, that's really not my problem; it's yours.
    - crux_ 16y ago
      > # Tell jokes that would make sailors blush Not specific gender bias, but we can both agree it's likely. > For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" Sure you can, just like every other startup/developer type has said ten thousand times -- hell, you aren't even the first in this thread. Isn't there room for a more nuanced view?
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  Dude, we're not talking about The 300 here. It's not a scholarly work, a historical piece, nor even a stand-up-comedy routine. It's a job ad. That matters. HP Lovecraft's poem "On the Creation of the Nigger" is also a historical document from a century ago. We should not bury it, as it's an important document. I like the Cthulhu mythos, but I wouldn't quote that poem in a job ad in 2010. Now of course people will reply "saying 'Men' isn't as bad as saying 'Nigger'", and miss the point.
anigbrowl 16y ago
is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. It's more of a signal to marketing professionals. That 'men wanted for hazardous journey' ad is famous enough to be cited in just about any textbook/college course on advertising and marketing - it generated a huge volume of replies when published, confounding the intuitive belief that effective advertising requires exclusive focus on the positive. They're seeking to attract people with a similar ability to see the big picture (both superficially and in the abstracted context of the ad biz), and emphasizing that their actual hiring will be extremely selective. You probably don't believe that the job is actually physically hazardous (I hope), and can appreciate the metaphorical use of the quotation in relation to the uncertainty of disrupting an extremely competitive established market. Within that context, it makes no sense to interpret a single word in purely literal terms, any more than it's sensible to think that citing Alice in Wonderland means one is addressing oneself exclusively to people named Alice.
- earl 16y ago
  Perhaps I'm stupid, or maybe it's that I went to a state school, but I didn't recognize the quote.

by crux_ 16y ago

yalurker 16y ago

"I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive." I'll venture a guess: because many of us find it incredibly tiring and annoying to have to constantly stop and think "is there any possible way the following sentence could be interpreted as prejudiced against any group?" when communicating. If person A says something non-sexual and person B finds a way to make it so (ie "that's what she said") we think person B is the dirty minded one, not A. However if person A says something non-racial and person B finds a way to make it so, we act like A has committed a grave offense and needs to apologize. Too many people in America can't look at an ink-blot without seeing sexism or racism or discrimination of some stripe. Being "too sensitive" is often just causing controversy or problems where none needed to exist. It also makes it so that legitimate discrimination is harder to notice because it gets lost in a sea of false accusations. The tl;dr is: save the outrage for legitimate discrimination, don't waste time & energy trying to manufacture it everywhere

crux_ 16y ago
Do you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?
- Alex3917 16y ago
  While there are a number of telling studies and statistics relating to gender issues, I think there is enough missing information that it isn't really possible to say much of anything intelligent on the subject. Given that we literally can't even tell the difference between a mental illness and a physical illness much of the time, I don't think science is ready to put a number on the percentage of the entrepreneurship gender gap that's attributable to sexism. For all we know it could be due to social factors or biological factors that are so non-obvious that no one has even thought of them yet.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    Statistics and studies will tell you information about the source of a gender gap. However, things like: * porn passed around chatrooms * rape jokes around the water cooler * comments on women's attractiveness every time one leaves the room, or every time a photo is posted online. * etc don't really need statistics, do they?
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      "don't really need statistics, do they?" I know plenty of women who would have no problem with any of the above. These things happen at some startups, don't happen at others, some women wouldn't want a workplace like this, others would enjoy it. And this is just one of many, many factors. Again, without more information you can't really say anything intelligent.
      - crux_ 16y ago
        If your definition of "sexism" is something that all women would have a problem with, then by your definition there's no such thing as sexism anyway.
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      I know plenty of women that look at porn, one female friend continually makes jokes about raping me, and if you don't think that women talk about men when they're not around... Not that I totally disagree with you, and most of my peer group is under 30. Just saying.
      - crux_ 16y ago
        > I know plenty of women that look at porn, one female friend continually makes jokes about raping me, and if you don't think that women talk about men when they're not around... Note: I'm talking about in professional settings. p.s.: watch out for your friend. ;)
        16y ago
- stonemetal 16y ago
  Yes, I believe that among developers in general and software startups in particular you will find an average to below average number of people with a sexism problem. You will however find an above average number of people who a) can't take a joke b) are somewhat bone headed in making inappropriate jokes. c) people who fall in to categories A and B at the same time.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    Let's take category (b). If a joke is truly inappropriate, is it really being a wet blanket to speak up about it?
    - stonemetal 16y ago
      People believe lots of different things. What is inappropriate to say in front of one person is not inappropriate to say in front of another. I believe that given their target audience nothing in the post was inappropriate. The slight but vocal response would seem to back that claim. To tell you the truth I must be so far in category B that I still don't understand the protest. Man has been used as a synonym for human for as long as I can remember. That would make men being the plural of man a synonym for people.
      - CWuestefeld 16y ago
        To be completely fair, the original ad that was referenced really was looking exclusively for males. But does this mean that we should avoid all references to a past in which people were less enlightened? Must we pretend that the world was never that way, or pretend that everything that happened in that world was evil because of it? Those who jump on the slightest whisper that men and women, or people of different races, or cultures, or whatever, might be different in some ways are deluding themselves. That's not to say that we can put a value on any of these differences, nor that these differences are any more than statistical tendencies and not applicable to individuals.
- axod 16y ago
  No. It absolutely does not IMHO. Our work just isn't appealing to most women.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    Our work, or our culture? I'm going to say it's the latter, given that these aspects of it aren't appealing to me either.
    - axod 16y ago
      I'm a male. I don't give a flying fuck about 'culture'. There is no culture. It matters not a jot to me. It never has. Why should it??? I grew up hacking away on my own in my bedroom floor hunched in front of a PC making raycasting demos at 4am. WTF has culture got to do with me doing that??? Are you trying to say that I started programming because I was embraced by some culture??? Are you saying that women are put off solely because of this mythical culture you speak of? Grow up. Once you have a few kids, you learn that most differences in the sexes are genetic. Women enjoy communicating. They're social beings on the whole. Sitting talking to a computer does not appeal. This is not rocket science. It's not environmental. It's hard wiring. Women = nurturing, communication. Men = hunt, build. If you can't see that, I'm not sure what hope there is for you.
      - crux_ 16y ago
        > It's hard wiring. Women = nurturing, communication. Men = hunt, build. Let's ignore all the mountains of evidence to the contrary and say that, on average, you are absolutely correct. Have you read Harrison Bergeron? Go on, it's easy to find on google. I'll wait. Okay, done? Good. Now think about this: No matter how correct you may be about genetic predestination, your sexist attitudes, and the actions you take based upon those assumptions and beliefs, create a deep moral wrong against any woman who dares to be exceptional. Get it now, you fucking jackass?
        axod 16y ago
        Yeah. Because womens brains are exactly identical to mens brains. Same with their bodies. In fact I can't tell men apart from women. They're biologically identical! Have you actually had any interactions with real women?
JabavuAdams 16y ago
I understand your sentiment, but who gets to decide what is legitimate discrimination, and what is not? Surely, it should be a compromise. Let's take discrimination out of the picture, and look at a less contentious example. In a relationship, how often does saying "you're overreacting, just calm down" get someone to calm down? The alternative is to, perhaps, listen to the complaint, rather than dismissing it immediately. Finally, let me point out that there's an interesting systems thing going on here. Imagine you're raised / cultured in a system that is stacked in your favour. Would you notice it, or would you just notice that there are these annoying people who keep complaining about nothing?

loire280 16y ago

Anyone who is offended by a sexist title (this one is an apt historical reference as well) is probably going to have a problem in a startup where employees "[t]ell jokes that would make sailors blush". I bet a fair number of those jokes are sexist, too. This may be an effective filter for a sexual harassment lawsuit.

crux_ 16y ago
It's not so much "offended" as the fact that I do not like what developer culture has become. Speaking up about it seems to be a small way to create some change in that culture. If I keep quiet, then the hive-minded sausage-fest will march on, assuming I share its beliefs. On the other hand, speaking up about it really is just tilting at windmills, and incredibly frustrating each time.
- axod 16y ago
  Are you going to make the fashion world more welcoming of straight males as well?
  - crux_ 16y ago
    If I were in the fashion world and felt that was an issue, why not? I'm not a fucking wallflower.
    - axod 16y ago
      I think you missed the point. It's not that the fashion world is not welcoming of straight men, it's that most straight men don't care about being in the fashion world.
      - crux_ 16y ago
        It doesn't matter. If the fashion world were shitting all over straight men, it would be wrong whether it was one straight guy looking to make it as a designer or a hundred thousand.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago

Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?

crux_ 16y ago
They chose the headline; I did not -- and it seems pretty clear from more than just the headline that the AdGrok folks value anti-PC posturing quite highly. If it were me choosing the headline, and I had a desire to reference Shackleton's journey, what's wrong with "Wanted for hazardous journey: [...]"?
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  First, point to anything else in that blog post that indicates any kind of "anti-PC posturing". Specifically anything that reveals any kind of gender bias. I'm guessing that you can't without revealing some gender biases of your own, but try me. Second, there's a difference between "anti-PC" and anti-equality. For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" because I think running around mincing your words in a (pointless and futile) attempt to avoid offending anyone is cowardly, but that doesn't mean that I hate minorities or am against equality. It just means that I think "political correctness" is stupid. If you're offended by my opinions, that's really not my problem; it's yours.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    > # Tell jokes that would make sailors blush Not specific gender bias, but we can both agree it's likely. > For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" Sure you can, just like every other startup/developer type has said ten thousand times -- hell, you aren't even the first in this thread. Isn't there room for a more nuanced view?
JabavuAdams 16y ago
Dude, we're not talking about The 300 here. It's not a scholarly work, a historical piece, nor even a stand-up-comedy routine. It's a job ad. That matters. HP Lovecraft's poem "On the Creation of the Nigger" is also a historical document from a century ago. We should not bury it, as it's an important document. I like the Cthulhu mythos, but I wouldn't quote that poem in a job ad in 2010. Now of course people will reply "saying 'Men' isn't as bad as saying 'Nigger'", and miss the point.

anigbrowl 16y ago

is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. It's more of a signal to marketing professionals. That 'men wanted for hazardous journey' ad is famous enough to be cited in just about any textbook/college course on advertising and marketing - it generated a huge volume of replies when published, confounding the intuitive belief that effective advertising requires exclusive focus on the positive. They're seeking to attract people with a similar ability to see the big picture (both superficially and in the abstracted context of the ad biz), and emphasizing that their actual hiring will be extremely selective. You probably don't believe that the job is actually physically hazardous (I hope), and can appreciate the metaphorical use of the quotation in relation to the uncertainty of disrupting an extremely competitive established market. Within that context, it makes no sense to interpret a single word in purely literal terms, any more than it's sensible to think that citing Alice in Wonderland means one is addressing oneself exclusively to people named Alice.

earl 16y ago
Perhaps I'm stupid, or maybe it's that I went to a state school, but I didn't recognize the quote.