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Sexist! Just kidding...people are too sensitive. http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm

crux_ 16y ago
Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...
- yalurker 16y ago
  "I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive." I'll venture a guess: because many of us find it incredibly tiring and annoying to have to constantly stop and think "is there any possible way the following sentence could be interpreted as prejudiced against any group?" when communicating. If person A says something non-sexual and person B finds a way to make it so (ie "that's what she said") we think person B is the dirty minded one, not A. However if person A says something non-racial and person B finds a way to make it so, we act like A has committed a grave offense and needs to apologize. Too many people in America can't look at an ink-blot without seeing sexism or racism or discrimination of some stripe. Being "too sensitive" is often just causing controversy or problems where none needed to exist. It also makes it so that legitimate discrimination is harder to notice because it gets lost in a sea of false accusations. The tl;dr is: save the outrage for legitimate discrimination, don't waste time & energy trying to manufacture it everywhere
  - crux_ 16y ago
    Do you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      While there are a number of telling studies and statistics relating to gender issues, I think there is enough missing information that it isn't really possible to say much of anything intelligent on the subject. Given that we literally can't even tell the difference between a mental illness and a physical illness much of the time, I don't think science is ready to put a number on the percentage of the entrepreneurship gender gap that's attributable to sexism. For all we know it could be due to social factors or biological factors that are so non-obvious that no one has even thought of them yet.
      - crux_ 16y ago
        Statistics and studies will tell you information about the source of a gender gap. However, things like: * porn passed around chatrooms * rape jokes around the water cooler * comments on women's attractiveness every time one leaves the room, or every time a photo is posted online. * etc don't really need statistics, do they?
        Alex3917 16y ago
        "don't really need statistics, do they?" I know plenty of women who would have no problem with any of the above. These things happen at some startups, don't happen at others, some women wouldn't want a workplace like this, others would enjoy it. And this is just one of many, many factors. Again, without more information you can't really say anything intelligent.
        crux_ 16y ago
        If your definition of "sexism" is something that all women would have a problem with, then by your definition there's no such thing as sexism anyway.
        steveklabnik 16y ago
        I know plenty of women that look at porn, one female friend continually makes jokes about raping me, and if you don't think that women talk about men when they're not around... Not that I totally disagree with you, and most of my peer group is under 30. Just saying.
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    I understand your sentiment, but who gets to decide what is legitimate discrimination, and what is not? Surely, it should be a compromise. Let's take discrimination out of the picture, and look at a less contentious example. In a relationship, how often does saying "you're overreacting, just calm down" get someone to calm down? The alternative is to, perhaps, listen to the complaint, rather than dismissing it immediately. Finally, let me point out that there's an interesting systems thing going on here. Imagine you're raised / cultured in a system that is stacked in your favour. Would you notice it, or would you just notice that there are these annoying people who keep complaining about nothing?
- loire280 16y ago
  Anyone who is offended by a sexist title (this one is an apt historical reference as well) is probably going to have a problem in a startup where employees "[t]ell jokes that would make sailors blush". I bet a fair number of those jokes are sexist, too. This may be an effective filter for a sexual harassment lawsuit.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    It's not so much "offended" as the fact that I do not like what developer culture has become. Speaking up about it seems to be a small way to create some change in that culture. If I keep quiet, then the hive-minded sausage-fest will march on, assuming I share its beliefs. On the other hand, speaking up about it really is just tilting at windmills, and incredibly frustrating each time.
    - axod 16y ago
      Are you going to make the fashion world more welcoming of straight males as well?
      - crux_ 16y ago
        If I were in the fashion world and felt that was an issue, why not? I'm not a fucking wallflower.
        axod 16y ago
        I think you missed the point. It's not that the fashion world is not welcoming of straight men, it's that most straight men don't care about being in the fashion world.
        crux_ 16y ago
        It doesn't matter. If the fashion world were shitting all over straight men, it would be wrong whether it was one straight guy looking to make it as a designer or a hundred thousand.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?
  - crux_ 16y ago
    They chose the headline; I did not -- and it seems pretty clear from more than just the headline that the AdGrok folks value anti-PC posturing quite highly. If it were me choosing the headline, and I had a desire to reference Shackleton's journey, what's wrong with "Wanted for hazardous journey: [...]"?
    - ryanwaggoner 16y ago
      First, point to anything else in that blog post that indicates any kind of "anti-PC posturing". Specifically anything that reveals any kind of gender bias. I'm guessing that you can't without revealing some gender biases of your own, but try me. Second, there's a difference between "anti-PC" and anti-equality. For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" because I think running around mincing your words in a (pointless and futile) attempt to avoid offending anyone is cowardly, but that doesn't mean that I hate minorities or am against equality. It just means that I think "political correctness" is stupid. If you're offended by my opinions, that's really not my problem; it's yours.
      - crux_ 16y ago
        > # Tell jokes that would make sailors blush Not specific gender bias, but we can both agree it's likely. > For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" Sure you can, just like every other startup/developer type has said ten thousand times -- hell, you aren't even the first in this thread. Isn't there room for a more nuanced view?
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    Dude, we're not talking about The 300 here. It's not a scholarly work, a historical piece, nor even a stand-up-comedy routine. It's a job ad. That matters. HP Lovecraft's poem "On the Creation of the Nigger" is also a historical document from a century ago. We should not bury it, as it's an important document. I like the Cthulhu mythos, but I wouldn't quote that poem in a job ad in 2010. Now of course people will reply "saying 'Men' isn't as bad as saying 'Nigger'", and miss the point.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. It's more of a signal to marketing professionals. That 'men wanted for hazardous journey' ad is famous enough to be cited in just about any textbook/college course on advertising and marketing - it generated a huge volume of replies when published, confounding the intuitive belief that effective advertising requires exclusive focus on the positive. They're seeking to attract people with a similar ability to see the big picture (both superficially and in the abstracted context of the ad biz), and emphasizing that their actual hiring will be extremely selective. You probably don't believe that the job is actually physically hazardous (I hope), and can appreciate the metaphorical use of the quotation in relation to the uncertainty of disrupting an extremely competitive established market. Within that context, it makes no sense to interpret a single word in purely literal terms, any more than it's sensible to think that citing Alice in Wonderland means one is addressing oneself exclusively to people named Alice.
  - earl 16y ago
    Perhaps I'm stupid, or maybe it's that I went to a state school, but I didn't recognize the quote.
JabavuAdams 16y ago
> Just kidding...people are too sensitive Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. While there are surely people who are too sensitive, the dismissal-of-complaint-by-invocation-of-oversensitiveness-by-non-aggrieved-group is a classic pattern too. I.e. it's easy to say someone's oversensitive, if you don't care about (or struggle against) what they do.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. Bullshit. Who, other than me, should have the right to decide if my statement is too offensive to be spoken? It is absolutely up to the individual to decide if someone else's offense at your statements or opinions is due to oversensitivity or you being wrong. Who else should decide, if not the individual with the opinion in question?
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to censor you -- I just want that to be clear. So, it's not a question of whether anything you say is "too offensive to be spoken". That was your interpretation -- not mine. Second, I don't believe that we can or should always avoid offending others -- we don't have a right to never be offended. What I am specifically focusing on is this attitude that "you shouldn't be offended" is conventionally used to defend the status-quo, by people who are not disadvantaged under the status-quo. This impedes reasonable discussion and learning. Obviously if I don't have a problem with X, I don't have a problem with X. The people who do have a problem with X seem kind of weird. The only way we can reasonably start to figure out whether or not X is a problem is by listening honestly to a bunch of people affected by X. As people unaffected by X our opinion simply doesn't count as much -- until we've made a geniune effort to understand, rather than just dismissing.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      I think the rational argument is; if you are finding offense in an innocent phrase that was not intended (or even considered as) to imply a sexist attitude then you are a part of the problem you are observing. If someone said this to belittle or discriminate; that should generate an outcry. Sadly; it does not because examples like this get the same treatment. So, no, you probably shouldn't be offended by examples such as this. If you do; rational people will try to help by suggesting you are being over sensitive in an attempt to avoid future misunderstandings on your part. (I'd also point out that suggesting intent in an utterly innocent phrase is not just over sensitive but outright rude to the person writing it)

crux_ 16y ago

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...

yalurker 16y ago
"I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive." I'll venture a guess: because many of us find it incredibly tiring and annoying to have to constantly stop and think "is there any possible way the following sentence could be interpreted as prejudiced against any group?" when communicating. If person A says something non-sexual and person B finds a way to make it so (ie "that's what she said") we think person B is the dirty minded one, not A. However if person A says something non-racial and person B finds a way to make it so, we act like A has committed a grave offense and needs to apologize. Too many people in America can't look at an ink-blot without seeing sexism or racism or discrimination of some stripe. Being "too sensitive" is often just causing controversy or problems where none needed to exist. It also makes it so that legitimate discrimination is harder to notice because it gets lost in a sea of false accusations. The tl;dr is: save the outrage for legitimate discrimination, don't waste time & energy trying to manufacture it everywhere
- crux_ 16y ago
  Do you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    While there are a number of telling studies and statistics relating to gender issues, I think there is enough missing information that it isn't really possible to say much of anything intelligent on the subject. Given that we literally can't even tell the difference between a mental illness and a physical illness much of the time, I don't think science is ready to put a number on the percentage of the entrepreneurship gender gap that's attributable to sexism. For all we know it could be due to social factors or biological factors that are so non-obvious that no one has even thought of them yet.
    - crux_ 16y ago
      Statistics and studies will tell you information about the source of a gender gap. However, things like: * porn passed around chatrooms * rape jokes around the water cooler * comments on women's attractiveness every time one leaves the room, or every time a photo is posted online. * etc don't really need statistics, do they?
      - Alex3917 16y ago
        "don't really need statistics, do they?" I know plenty of women who would have no problem with any of the above. These things happen at some startups, don't happen at others, some women wouldn't want a workplace like this, others would enjoy it. And this is just one of many, many factors. Again, without more information you can't really say anything intelligent.
        crux_ 16y ago
        If your definition of "sexism" is something that all women would have a problem with, then by your definition there's no such thing as sexism anyway.
      - steveklabnik 16y ago
        I know plenty of women that look at porn, one female friend continually makes jokes about raping me, and if you don't think that women talk about men when they're not around... Not that I totally disagree with you, and most of my peer group is under 30. Just saying.
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  I understand your sentiment, but who gets to decide what is legitimate discrimination, and what is not? Surely, it should be a compromise. Let's take discrimination out of the picture, and look at a less contentious example. In a relationship, how often does saying "you're overreacting, just calm down" get someone to calm down? The alternative is to, perhaps, listen to the complaint, rather than dismissing it immediately. Finally, let me point out that there's an interesting systems thing going on here. Imagine you're raised / cultured in a system that is stacked in your favour. Would you notice it, or would you just notice that there are these annoying people who keep complaining about nothing?
loire280 16y ago
Anyone who is offended by a sexist title (this one is an apt historical reference as well) is probably going to have a problem in a startup where employees "[t]ell jokes that would make sailors blush". I bet a fair number of those jokes are sexist, too. This may be an effective filter for a sexual harassment lawsuit.
- crux_ 16y ago
  It's not so much "offended" as the fact that I do not like what developer culture has become. Speaking up about it seems to be a small way to create some change in that culture. If I keep quiet, then the hive-minded sausage-fest will march on, assuming I share its beliefs. On the other hand, speaking up about it really is just tilting at windmills, and incredibly frustrating each time.
  - axod 16y ago
    Are you going to make the fashion world more welcoming of straight males as well?
    - crux_ 16y ago
      If I were in the fashion world and felt that was an issue, why not? I'm not a fucking wallflower.
      - axod 16y ago
        I think you missed the point. It's not that the fashion world is not welcoming of straight men, it's that most straight men don't care about being in the fashion world.
        crux_ 16y ago
        It doesn't matter. If the fashion world were shitting all over straight men, it would be wrong whether it was one straight guy looking to make it as a designer or a hundred thousand.
ryanwaggoner 16y ago
Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?
- crux_ 16y ago
  They chose the headline; I did not -- and it seems pretty clear from more than just the headline that the AdGrok folks value anti-PC posturing quite highly. If it were me choosing the headline, and I had a desire to reference Shackleton's journey, what's wrong with "Wanted for hazardous journey: [...]"?
  - ryanwaggoner 16y ago
    First, point to anything else in that blog post that indicates any kind of "anti-PC posturing". Specifically anything that reveals any kind of gender bias. I'm guessing that you can't without revealing some gender biases of your own, but try me. Second, there's a difference between "anti-PC" and anti-equality. For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" because I think running around mincing your words in a (pointless and futile) attempt to avoid offending anyone is cowardly, but that doesn't mean that I hate minorities or am against equality. It just means that I think "political correctness" is stupid. If you're offended by my opinions, that's really not my problem; it's yours.
    - crux_ 16y ago
      > # Tell jokes that would make sailors blush Not specific gender bias, but we can both agree it's likely. > For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" Sure you can, just like every other startup/developer type has said ten thousand times -- hell, you aren't even the first in this thread. Isn't there room for a more nuanced view?
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  Dude, we're not talking about The 300 here. It's not a scholarly work, a historical piece, nor even a stand-up-comedy routine. It's a job ad. That matters. HP Lovecraft's poem "On the Creation of the Nigger" is also a historical document from a century ago. We should not bury it, as it's an important document. I like the Cthulhu mythos, but I wouldn't quote that poem in a job ad in 2010. Now of course people will reply "saying 'Men' isn't as bad as saying 'Nigger'", and miss the point.
anigbrowl 16y ago
is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. It's more of a signal to marketing professionals. That 'men wanted for hazardous journey' ad is famous enough to be cited in just about any textbook/college course on advertising and marketing - it generated a huge volume of replies when published, confounding the intuitive belief that effective advertising requires exclusive focus on the positive. They're seeking to attract people with a similar ability to see the big picture (both superficially and in the abstracted context of the ad biz), and emphasizing that their actual hiring will be extremely selective. You probably don't believe that the job is actually physically hazardous (I hope), and can appreciate the metaphorical use of the quotation in relation to the uncertainty of disrupting an extremely competitive established market. Within that context, it makes no sense to interpret a single word in purely literal terms, any more than it's sensible to think that citing Alice in Wonderland means one is addressing oneself exclusively to people named Alice.
- earl 16y ago
  Perhaps I'm stupid, or maybe it's that I went to a state school, but I didn't recognize the quote.

JabavuAdams 16y ago

> Just kidding...people are too sensitive Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. While there are surely people who are too sensitive, the dismissal-of-complaint-by-invocation-of-oversensitiveness-by-non-aggrieved-group is a classic pattern too. I.e. it's easy to say someone's oversensitive, if you don't care about (or struggle against) what they do.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. Bullshit. Who, other than me, should have the right to decide if my statement is too offensive to be spoken? It is absolutely up to the individual to decide if someone else's offense at your statements or opinions is due to oversensitivity or you being wrong. Who else should decide, if not the individual with the opinion in question?
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  Ok, first of all, I'm not trying to censor you -- I just want that to be clear. So, it's not a question of whether anything you say is "too offensive to be spoken". That was your interpretation -- not mine. Second, I don't believe that we can or should always avoid offending others -- we don't have a right to never be offended. What I am specifically focusing on is this attitude that "you shouldn't be offended" is conventionally used to defend the status-quo, by people who are not disadvantaged under the status-quo. This impedes reasonable discussion and learning. Obviously if I don't have a problem with X, I don't have a problem with X. The people who do have a problem with X seem kind of weird. The only way we can reasonably start to figure out whether or not X is a problem is by listening honestly to a bunch of people affected by X. As people unaffected by X our opinion simply doesn't count as much -- until we've made a geniune effort to understand, rather than just dismissing.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    I think the rational argument is; if you are finding offense in an innocent phrase that was not intended (or even considered as) to imply a sexist attitude then you are a part of the problem you are observing. If someone said this to belittle or discriminate; that should generate an outcry. Sadly; it does not because examples like this get the same treatment. So, no, you probably shouldn't be offended by examples such as this. If you do; rational people will try to help by suggesting you are being over sensitive in an attempt to avoid future misunderstandings on your part. (I'd also point out that suggesting intent in an utterly innocent phrase is not just over sensitive but outright rude to the person writing it)