6 ms·

Nice, but you'd be much better off with "Good men and women wanted for hazardous journey." There may be statistically fewer women in tech, but you'll never hea

by varaon 16y ago

Nice, but you'd be much better off with "Good men and women wanted for hazardous journey." There may be statistically fewer women in tech, but you'll never hear from them with a title like that!

antongm 16y ago
The headliner is an apocryphal quote from Ernest Shackleton, leader of a doomed but famous Antarctic expedition in 1914. Nothing about the current state of tech was implied, nor about our desired employee pool. Obviously we welcome one and all.
- limedaring 16y ago
  Don't think it's obvious, if you just look at the headline. Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers?
  - spitfire 16y ago
    Yes, the integrity of the quote is more important than alienating a very few people who don't know history. Aside: I wouldn't want to work with someone who got wound up about something like this.
    - limedaring 16y ago
      The men who posted the ad would have laughed their socks off if a woman responded. Sure, it's immensely inspiring, but I wouldn't have been allowed to go on that expedition back in the day and it kind of makes me feel like I wouldn't be allowed to work at AdGrok as well, or at least looked down upon ("A woman programmer? Psh! Get back to the kitchen.")
  - mike_h 16y ago
    I usually come out pretty strongly against programmer-culture misogyny, however subtle, but here we're talking about a pretty famous quotation and I would answer to your question, "yes". There's a difference between sexism and historically-weighted badassness. One could argue there's a literacy-filter being applied here more than a gender-filter.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    > Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers? Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. If I were a woman - which I'm not - I would definitely play that to my advantage in my application.
    - JabavuAdams 16y ago
      > Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. Why do minorities need to have a sense of humour about themselves? I do, but why do I have to to get into your club? FWIW, I've made countless raunchy jokes that would have gotten me flagged by HR in a staid shop. The thing is -- I take responsibility for that. I.e. if I offended someone it's not necessarily because they have no sense of humour.
      - Semiapies 16y ago
        Because if the majority can't universally dismiss someone else taking offense as "having no sense of humor", then they run the risk of admitting that they might have said something wrong, or that they could have said it in a better way. Dangit, answering rhetorical questions again... Personally, the funny part to me is people arguing that the "integrity" of a quote that's already been hacked up must be "maintained".
- sabj 16y ago
  I got the quote, appreciated the reference. Unfortunately for the purposes of this argument, am male. I would say that I'm OK with the quote for artistic purposes, perhaps vary the call to action in other contexts to avoid arousing any problems of bias... [O__o]
- CWuestefeld 16y ago
  It may be worth noting that although the expedition was a failure, that was pretty much a matter of bad luck with the behavior of the ice floes. And as awful an experience as it must have been for the men involved, it's also worth noting (perhaps especially in this context) that not a single person lost his life, owing largely to some incredible leadership from Shackleton, and amazing skills from much of his crew.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    There was some genuine heroism and technical excellence involved in the Titanic, but I wouldn't want to reference that in a start-up, either. That's the fun of marketing: other people can quite reasonably take other things from your references than the meaning you tried to evoke.
- arethuza 16y ago
  Anyone seeking to lead other can do a lot worst than trying to learn from Ernest Shackleton "but when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton"
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Super quote, especially given the bits I remember about the 'endurance expedition', that's as nice a metaphor of what it can be like to run a startup. Hope you end up better than Shackleton and crew and succeed!
- crux_ 16y ago
  > Nothing about the current state of tech was implied I'll make your implication for you, then: The current state of tech is just as sexist and imbalanced as the world of exploration was in 1914. > Obviously we welcome one and all. If it were obvious, why did you need that footnote about women being welcome too? And why do you need to repeat that point in clarifying comments? (N.b., Slightly intentionally provocative.)
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  It's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. On the other hand, it's not just you guys -- i.e. you're no worse than the avg. tech company, FWIW. This is a classic example of the techie "we're a meritocracy, so we couldn't possibly be sexist" thinking that's so common. It's not the pat on the ass and glass-ceiling kind of sexism, to be sure, but it's the STFU 'cause no one's grabbing your ass kind of sexism.
  - ekidd 16y ago
    It's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. An apt way of putting it. Thank you. I wasn't familiar with the historical quote, and I only saw the headline on Hacker News. My initial reaction was, "Oh, good grief. Do we have to go through GenderFail, SmutOnRails, etc., every 15 minutes? I hate this conversation. It must be even less fun for female hackers, who can't win either way."
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    It shouldn't be an awful headline; that's the sad thing. I submit that those taking issue with it (i.e. those pointing out a potential offence) are actually part of the problem. One solution would be t encourage as many innocent headlines as it takes till it simple doesn't matter whether you say men, women or Martian - it just means people.... (unfortunately that means people will be offended, so possibly not the sanest approach) Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :)
    - JabavuAdams 16y ago
      > Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :) Sure, but it betrays a certain cluelessness. I.e. It's not so much that this is an outrageous headline -- ZOMG off with their heads, public apology, blah blah. It's more a case of -- if they're clueless about this, then what else are they clueless about -- especially from the POV of a prospective female employee. E.g. I know of a sweet old grandma who described the colour of her sofa as "nigger brown". She had no ill intent, and I don't ascribe any to her. BUT ... it's evidence that she may have other ideas that I may not agree with -- especially if she's my boss. Evidence of cluelessness is ... at the very least ... evidence of cluelessness.
- d0mine 16y ago
  It might be "urban legend" http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm
- Semiapies 16y ago
  The updated headline makes that clearer - thanks for listening to the criticism.

by varaon 16y ago

Nice, but you'd be much better off with "Good men and women wanted for hazardous journey." There may be statistically fewer women in tech, but you'll never hear from them with a title like that!

antongm 16y ago

The headliner is an apocryphal quote from Ernest Shackleton, leader of a doomed but famous Antarctic expedition in 1914. Nothing about the current state of tech was implied, nor about our desired employee pool. Obviously we welcome one and all.

limedaring 16y ago
Don't think it's obvious, if you just look at the headline. Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers?
- spitfire 16y ago
  Yes, the integrity of the quote is more important than alienating a very few people who don't know history. Aside: I wouldn't want to work with someone who got wound up about something like this.
  - limedaring 16y ago
    The men who posted the ad would have laughed their socks off if a woman responded. Sure, it's immensely inspiring, but I wouldn't have been allowed to go on that expedition back in the day and it kind of makes me feel like I wouldn't be allowed to work at AdGrok as well, or at least looked down upon ("A woman programmer? Psh! Get back to the kitchen.")
- mike_h 16y ago
  I usually come out pretty strongly against programmer-culture misogyny, however subtle, but here we're talking about a pretty famous quotation and I would answer to your question, "yes". There's a difference between sexism and historically-weighted badassness. One could argue there's a literacy-filter being applied here more than a gender-filter.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > Is the integrity of the quote more important than looking non-biased against women programmers? Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. If I were a woman - which I'm not - I would definitely play that to my advantage in my application.
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    > Yes, absolutely. It also pre-selects for those that have a sense of humor. Why do minorities need to have a sense of humour about themselves? I do, but why do I have to to get into your club? FWIW, I've made countless raunchy jokes that would have gotten me flagged by HR in a staid shop. The thing is -- I take responsibility for that. I.e. if I offended someone it's not necessarily because they have no sense of humour.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      Because if the majority can't universally dismiss someone else taking offense as "having no sense of humor", then they run the risk of admitting that they might have said something wrong, or that they could have said it in a better way. Dangit, answering rhetorical questions again... Personally, the funny part to me is people arguing that the "integrity" of a quote that's already been hacked up must be "maintained".
sabj 16y ago
I got the quote, appreciated the reference. Unfortunately for the purposes of this argument, am male. I would say that I'm OK with the quote for artistic purposes, perhaps vary the call to action in other contexts to avoid arousing any problems of bias... [O__o]
CWuestefeld 16y ago
It may be worth noting that although the expedition was a failure, that was pretty much a matter of bad luck with the behavior of the ice floes. And as awful an experience as it must have been for the men involved, it's also worth noting (perhaps especially in this context) that not a single person lost his life, owing largely to some incredible leadership from Shackleton, and amazing skills from much of his crew.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  There was some genuine heroism and technical excellence involved in the Titanic, but I wouldn't want to reference that in a start-up, either. That's the fun of marketing: other people can quite reasonably take other things from your references than the meaning you tried to evoke.
arethuza 16y ago
Anyone seeking to lead other can do a lot worst than trying to learn from Ernest Shackleton "but when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton"
jacquesm 16y ago
Super quote, especially given the bits I remember about the 'endurance expedition', that's as nice a metaphor of what it can be like to run a startup. Hope you end up better than Shackleton and crew and succeed!
crux_ 16y ago
> Nothing about the current state of tech was implied I'll make your implication for you, then: The current state of tech is just as sexist and imbalanced as the world of exploration was in 1914. > Obviously we welcome one and all. If it were obvious, why did you need that footnote about women being welcome too? And why do you need to repeat that point in clarifying comments? (N.b., Slightly intentionally provocative.)
JabavuAdams 16y ago
It's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. On the other hand, it's not just you guys -- i.e. you're no worse than the avg. tech company, FWIW. This is a classic example of the techie "we're a meritocracy, so we couldn't possibly be sexist" thinking that's so common. It's not the pat on the ass and glass-ceiling kind of sexism, to be sure, but it's the STFU 'cause no one's grabbing your ass kind of sexism.
- ekidd 16y ago
  It's pretty obvious that your intent was innocent. But the fact that you didn't realize how awful a headline that is sends a different message. An apt way of putting it. Thank you. I wasn't familiar with the historical quote, and I only saw the headline on Hacker News. My initial reaction was, "Oh, good grief. Do we have to go through GenderFail, SmutOnRails, etc., every 15 minutes? I hate this conversation. It must be even less fun for female hackers, who can't win either way."
- ErrantX 16y ago
  It shouldn't be an awful headline; that's the sad thing. I submit that those taking issue with it (i.e. those pointing out a potential offence) are actually part of the problem. One solution would be t encourage as many innocent headlines as it takes till it simple doesn't matter whether you say men, women or Martian - it just means people.... (unfortunately that means people will be offended, so possibly not the sanest approach) Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :)
  - JabavuAdams 16y ago
    > Ascribing an intent to someone who clearly doesn't mean it is just not cricket :) Sure, but it betrays a certain cluelessness. I.e. It's not so much that this is an outrageous headline -- ZOMG off with their heads, public apology, blah blah. It's more a case of -- if they're clueless about this, then what else are they clueless about -- especially from the POV of a prospective female employee. E.g. I know of a sweet old grandma who described the colour of her sofa as "nigger brown". She had no ill intent, and I don't ascribe any to her. BUT ... it's evidence that she may have other ideas that I may not agree with -- especially if she's my boss. Evidence of cluelessness is ... at the very least ... evidence of cluelessness.
d0mine 16y ago
It might be "urban legend" http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm
Semiapies 16y ago
The updated headline makes that clearer - thanks for listening to the criticism.