4 ms·

It's mind-numbing "code-to-spec" work. You aren't involved in the design or architecture (that is done several levels above you by "System Engineers"), you are

by jcadam 8y ago

It's mind-numbing "code-to-spec" work. You aren't involved in the design or architecture (that is done several levels above you by "System Engineers"), you are given a highly detailed spec (sometimes so detailed it amounts to pseudo-code) that really doesn't allow any room for creative problem solving. The last aerospace job I had basically consisted of translating matlab script written by the scientists into Ada code (and God forbid you find a problem with one of the formulas a self-important PhD came up with). You are treated as an interchangeable cog. Most people who work outside the industry hear "I wrote a simulation model for a spacecraft attitude determination & control system" and think I was doing some really cool, challenging stuff. But as a software engineer, you really don't get to use your brain.

52-6F-62 8y ago
That reminds me of my dad's recollections of working with Engineers (of what branch, I'm not sure) in the oil refinery he worked at for ~30 years. He was a pipefitter and he almost said what you just said word-for-word on a regular basis. If he had any corrections—well—he's just a lowly pipefitter, he can't be correct. Then he'd go out, work to their spec, the system would fail and he'd have to be called back in for overtime to fix it when they adjusted the spec to suit the problems he originally pointed out. Nothing new under the sun, huh.
- ovi256 8y ago
  That's just bad process that many best practices make a point of correcting. Lean Manufacturing, famously, pushes for people to give feedback.
  - 52-6F-62 8y ago
    Ah. Well while a refinery is technically in the category of manufacturing, my father wasn't part of the oil refining process itself. He was initially construction, and later maintenance on—well—all of the pipes. So the situation wasn't as iterative. It was more, for ex: * We need a new line for X process. * Draft plans for new line. * Receive [unwanted] feedback from fitters familiar with existing lines (having been in and out of them for n years) * Disparage feedback and double-down on drafted plans * Fitters implement plans * Line fails (a number of times this step has nearly cost people their lives) * Feedback of failure reverts to engineers * Redraft plans with practical considerations applied * Fitters implement fixed plans AFAIU that even somewhat aligns with lean manufacturing—in that they adhered to the designed process according to the authority, and when defects were found they iterated. I think the main complaint is that the fitters at this point act as almost an extension of the machine itself explaining why something will not work, and the given authority rejected any input at the outset—acting as the old priest caste, if you will. I worked briefly for Toyota (subman. Toyoda Iron Works) and the process wasn't much different. The stakes were just lower as the parts were smaller, cheaper, and faster to adjust. If I, as an operator, attempted to raise issue with the engineering team I would have been laughed out of the room in the same way. † † the engineering team had us set every M part aside for inspection 2-3 times a day so they could come check calibration. There was no other direct feedback loop that way from ops.
4thaccount 8y ago
This is why I'd much rather be doing the Matlab modeling simulations and analysis as the first step of the project and would prefer to stay away from the actual implementation part. You get the creative fun without the hard part of tracking down bug.
ainar-g 8y ago
You aren't involved in the design or architecture (that is done several levels above you by "System Engineers"), you are given a highly detailed spec (sometimes so detailed it amounts to pseudo-code) that really doesn't allow any room for creative problem solving. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but it sounds amazing. Compared to “Agile Enterprise Software Development” I have to do now, where specs are non-existent, and developers are also architects, QA, DevOps, and managers, the job that you've described is Heaven.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Why not swap jobs? Your pitch to the aerospace company is "I've got extensive experience in software development, but I'd like to work in a more rigorous environment with people who have extensive experience in solid engineering practices, and apply my skills to safety-critical problems that will affect millions of people." I did an internship in college at a company that wrote avionics software, and it taught me that I didn't really want to do that. My job is actually a step beyond "agile enterprise software development" in ambiguity - I'm a founder, which means that not only are my specs non-existent, but my product, customers, and business model are too, and my job description also includes customer development, sales, marketing, interaction & visual design, and enough legal to avoid completely fucking things up. But I've found that I like the highly ambiguous environment where nothing's nailed down and everything's a problem that needs to be solved in a hacky way yesterday. Luckily the economy is broad enough that people can move around to the work that suits them best. Take advantage of that - if you find you really don't like a sort of work, do something else!
  - ainar-g 8y ago
    I probably would if I was a US or EU citizen. I live in Russia, and our aerospace industry… has issues, to say the least, and I've heard that US companies tend to be vary of Russian nationals. Thanks for the advice though, and good luck with your enterprise!
  - anitil 8y ago
    > not only are my specs non-existent, but my product, customers, and business model are too This gave me a good chuckle!

by jcadam 8y ago

52-6F-62 8y ago

That reminds me of my dad's recollections of working with Engineers (of what branch, I'm not sure) in the oil refinery he worked at for ~30 years. He was a pipefitter and he almost said what you just said word-for-word on a regular basis. If he had any corrections—well—he's just a lowly pipefitter, he can't be correct. Then he'd go out, work to their spec, the system would fail and he'd have to be called back in for overtime to fix it when they adjusted the spec to suit the problems he originally pointed out. Nothing new under the sun, huh.

ovi256 8y ago
That's just bad process that many best practices make a point of correcting. Lean Manufacturing, famously, pushes for people to give feedback.
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  Ah. Well while a refinery is technically in the category of manufacturing, my father wasn't part of the oil refining process itself. He was initially construction, and later maintenance on—well—all of the pipes. So the situation wasn't as iterative. It was more, for ex: * We need a new line for X process. * Draft plans for new line. * Receive [unwanted] feedback from fitters familiar with existing lines (having been in and out of them for n years) * Disparage feedback and double-down on drafted plans * Fitters implement plans * Line fails (a number of times this step has nearly cost people their lives) * Feedback of failure reverts to engineers * Redraft plans with practical considerations applied * Fitters implement fixed plans AFAIU that even somewhat aligns with lean manufacturing—in that they adhered to the designed process according to the authority, and when defects were found they iterated. I think the main complaint is that the fitters at this point act as almost an extension of the machine itself explaining why something will not work, and the given authority rejected any input at the outset—acting as the old priest caste, if you will. I worked briefly for Toyota (subman. Toyoda Iron Works) and the process wasn't much different. The stakes were just lower as the parts were smaller, cheaper, and faster to adjust. If I, as an operator, attempted to raise issue with the engineering team I would have been laughed out of the room in the same way. † † the engineering team had us set every M part aside for inspection 2-3 times a day so they could come check calibration. There was no other direct feedback loop that way from ops.

4thaccount 8y ago

This is why I'd much rather be doing the Matlab modeling simulations and analysis as the first step of the project and would prefer to stay away from the actual implementation part. You get the creative fun without the hard part of tracking down bug.

ainar-g 8y ago

You aren't involved in the design or architecture (that is done several levels above you by "System Engineers"), you are given a highly detailed spec (sometimes so detailed it amounts to pseudo-code) that really doesn't allow any room for creative problem solving. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but it sounds amazing. Compared to “Agile Enterprise Software Development” I have to do now, where specs are non-existent, and developers are also architects, QA, DevOps, and managers, the job that you've described is Heaven.

nostrademons 8y ago
Why not swap jobs? Your pitch to the aerospace company is "I've got extensive experience in software development, but I'd like to work in a more rigorous environment with people who have extensive experience in solid engineering practices, and apply my skills to safety-critical problems that will affect millions of people." I did an internship in college at a company that wrote avionics software, and it taught me that I didn't really want to do that. My job is actually a step beyond "agile enterprise software development" in ambiguity - I'm a founder, which means that not only are my specs non-existent, but my product, customers, and business model are too, and my job description also includes customer development, sales, marketing, interaction & visual design, and enough legal to avoid completely fucking things up. But I've found that I like the highly ambiguous environment where nothing's nailed down and everything's a problem that needs to be solved in a hacky way yesterday. Luckily the economy is broad enough that people can move around to the work that suits them best. Take advantage of that - if you find you really don't like a sort of work, do something else!
- ainar-g 8y ago
  I probably would if I was a US or EU citizen. I live in Russia, and our aerospace industry… has issues, to say the least, and I've heard that US companies tend to be vary of Russian nationals. Thanks for the advice though, and good luck with your enterprise!
- anitil 8y ago
  > not only are my specs non-existent, but my product, customers, and business model are too This gave me a good chuckle!