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That is a tone deaf and harmful misunderstanding of poor people. Also, I don’t dispute that things like waking up early, meditation or exercise have real benef

by mlthoughts2018 8y ago

That is a tone deaf and harmful misunderstanding of poor people. Also, I don’t dispute that things like waking up early, meditation or exercise have real benefits. Whether they have real benefits is unrelated to this discussion. Separately, without money to alleviate obligations, many poor people find themselves overwhelmed through no fault of their own. A bad, unexpected legal or medical situation can leave you at the breaking point of stress for no other reason than lack of money. It may help to consider having more empathy as you mentally imagine the plight of poor folks.

saiya-jin 8y ago
You both are correct, that's the sad part - being poor is hard, and the margins for mistake/accident/bad luck are often razor thin. But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from - alcohol, cigarettes, taking shark loans for unnecessary 'luxuries', and the list goes on and on.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  > “But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from” This is the harmful misunderstanding part. Many systems in society are designed, intentionally, to perpetuate the defeated state that poor people randomly find themselves in. The manifestations of systematic poverty are not really free will choices of poor people a lot the time, from poor financial investments, poor purchase choices (especially when it comes to dietary choices or purchases for children), poor investment in education. The whole world they inhabit is institutionally configured to perpetuate this, give them no empathy or support. To a good first order approximation, zero percent of the life situation inhabited by most poor people is “their fault” and most outward seeming bad habits that are lazily easy for us to judge are really things we, society, have pushed onto them, and we should not take the easy way out and think contemptibly towards them.
  - RandomInteger4 8y ago
    If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own. Trying to find excuses for them isn't helping them and is in fact actively harmful. The usefulness of Stoicism comes from accepting the difficulties of life and dealing with them without indulging in excess with the excuse that it's for "self-care". When you fail and blame others, you fail again and again, because you can't learn what the root cause is in order to change your approach. I'm not saying that being poor is easy; I know first hand that it's not. I'm saying that the fact that it's not easy is the point and reason to adopt Stoicism.
    - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
      > “If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own” It looks like we just disagree. I do believe that is often society’s fault, and that it’s usually just a lazy way to absolve one’s self of blame or moral duty to act, or to justify that it’s OK to take political action that tacitly increases harm to the poor because it’s “their fault” they experience the circumstances they do. We often want to read narratives into our daily observations that paint ourselves as either self-sufficient heroes who worked for everything we got, or as victims of unfair circumstance. But when it comes to other people, we try to read narratives into their circumstances that absolve us of having to worry about it, or justify preconceived judgments we want to make. Bad decision making on the part of people systematically harmed by institutions, governments and policies is a classic example. Such people were often given no realistic opportunity to be capable of making good choices, but we steady ready to rush in and blame them the minute they make bad choices, which were the only kind of choice we gave them any realistic option to make.
      - RandomInteger4 8y ago
        Nothing about Stoicism says anything about taking political action against others. That's a strawman here. Just so we're clear, I'm currently one of those poor people living on the brink of potential Homelessness. I'm not saying anything I'm saying as some out of touch elite. I'm saying what I'm saying as someone who understands what I need to do to get out of my current circumstances isn't dwell on or wallow in my failures and blame others. There's nothing good that comes from that. There's nothing actionable that comes from that. I would be actively harmed by doing such things. When I often hear people making excuses for us poor, they seem to be the types that haven't touched poverty or are stricken by a form of toxic empathy; an unconscious desire to be seen as compassionate. It's well meaning, but it helps nobody. Assuming you're in the US, in nearly every context, you have the opportunities available to you to succeed (exceptions include contexts that are no fault of your own such as homelessness as a child). Many of us have those opportunities and we squander them. Stop telling people that if they're poor, then failure is inevitable or likely due to society. Yes, it's hard. Yes, there are factors about society that make it more difficult. That does not mean we're not ultimately responsible for our own decisions. You're teaching people helplessness by not acknowledging that. I know everything I need to do to succeed. I know that me failing to do those things is my fault and mine alone. I don't dwell on this, because otherwise I would descend into depression and self-destruction. Is that what you want of the poor? Do you want to encourage them to self-destruct? Because that is the ultimate implication of what your position against Stoicism seems to be. It's either that or a complete ignorance of what Stoicism implies.

saiya-jin 8y ago

You both are correct, that's the sad part - being poor is hard, and the margins for mistake/accident/bad luck are often razor thin. But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from - alcohol, cigarettes, taking shark loans for unnecessary 'luxuries', and the list goes on and on.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
> “But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from” This is the harmful misunderstanding part. Many systems in society are designed, intentionally, to perpetuate the defeated state that poor people randomly find themselves in. The manifestations of systematic poverty are not really free will choices of poor people a lot the time, from poor financial investments, poor purchase choices (especially when it comes to dietary choices or purchases for children), poor investment in education. The whole world they inhabit is institutionally configured to perpetuate this, give them no empathy or support. To a good first order approximation, zero percent of the life situation inhabited by most poor people is “their fault” and most outward seeming bad habits that are lazily easy for us to judge are really things we, society, have pushed onto them, and we should not take the easy way out and think contemptibly towards them.
- RandomInteger4 8y ago
  If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own. Trying to find excuses for them isn't helping them and is in fact actively harmful. The usefulness of Stoicism comes from accepting the difficulties of life and dealing with them without indulging in excess with the excuse that it's for "self-care". When you fail and blame others, you fail again and again, because you can't learn what the root cause is in order to change your approach. I'm not saying that being poor is easy; I know first hand that it's not. I'm saying that the fact that it's not easy is the point and reason to adopt Stoicism.
  - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
    > “If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own” It looks like we just disagree. I do believe that is often society’s fault, and that it’s usually just a lazy way to absolve one’s self of blame or moral duty to act, or to justify that it’s OK to take political action that tacitly increases harm to the poor because it’s “their fault” they experience the circumstances they do. We often want to read narratives into our daily observations that paint ourselves as either self-sufficient heroes who worked for everything we got, or as victims of unfair circumstance. But when it comes to other people, we try to read narratives into their circumstances that absolve us of having to worry about it, or justify preconceived judgments we want to make. Bad decision making on the part of people systematically harmed by institutions, governments and policies is a classic example. Such people were often given no realistic opportunity to be capable of making good choices, but we steady ready to rush in and blame them the minute they make bad choices, which were the only kind of choice we gave them any realistic option to make.
    - RandomInteger4 8y ago
      Nothing about Stoicism says anything about taking political action against others. That's a strawman here. Just so we're clear, I'm currently one of those poor people living on the brink of potential Homelessness. I'm not saying anything I'm saying as some out of touch elite. I'm saying what I'm saying as someone who understands what I need to do to get out of my current circumstances isn't dwell on or wallow in my failures and blame others. There's nothing good that comes from that. There's nothing actionable that comes from that. I would be actively harmed by doing such things. When I often hear people making excuses for us poor, they seem to be the types that haven't touched poverty or are stricken by a form of toxic empathy; an unconscious desire to be seen as compassionate. It's well meaning, but it helps nobody. Assuming you're in the US, in nearly every context, you have the opportunities available to you to succeed (exceptions include contexts that are no fault of your own such as homelessness as a child). Many of us have those opportunities and we squander them. Stop telling people that if they're poor, then failure is inevitable or likely due to society. Yes, it's hard. Yes, there are factors about society that make it more difficult. That does not mean we're not ultimately responsible for our own decisions. You're teaching people helplessness by not acknowledging that. I know everything I need to do to succeed. I know that me failing to do those things is my fault and mine alone. I don't dwell on this, because otherwise I would descend into depression and self-destruction. Is that what you want of the poor? Do you want to encourage them to self-destruct? Because that is the ultimate implication of what your position against Stoicism seems to be. It's either that or a complete ignorance of what Stoicism implies.