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> Waking up early for purposes of pure self-maintenance, like meditation or high-end exercise, and getting to work very early, are often examples of this. It su

by 2III7 8y ago

> Waking up early for purposes of pure self-maintenance, like meditation or high-end exercise, and getting to work very early, are often examples of this. It superficially feels like an accomplishment... There is nothing superficial about those things. By doing those things you gain wealth that is not measurable by any amount of money. > Less privileged folks may have to get up early just to barely make it to a shit job because of a 90 minute commute or a bunch of child care (or elder care) duties they have to perform. They may eat poorly or miss exercising because of all the obligations they cannot financially afford to offload. Less privileged folk also tend to stay up late and fill their minds with mindless media streams (television, social media etc.), drink alcohol to relieve stress to name a few stress relief activities. Daily stress should not be relieved by mind numbing crap, but by taking care of ones mental and physical health or seeking psychological help from professionals. Yes people tend to have too many obligations in which case people should re-assess their values and make sacrifices to not burn themselves out and die early. Life is complicated but we also tend to over complicate it.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago
That is a tone deaf and harmful misunderstanding of poor people. Also, I don’t dispute that things like waking up early, meditation or exercise have real benefits. Whether they have real benefits is unrelated to this discussion. Separately, without money to alleviate obligations, many poor people find themselves overwhelmed through no fault of their own. A bad, unexpected legal or medical situation can leave you at the breaking point of stress for no other reason than lack of money. It may help to consider having more empathy as you mentally imagine the plight of poor folks.
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  You both are correct, that's the sad part - being poor is hard, and the margins for mistake/accident/bad luck are often razor thin. But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from - alcohol, cigarettes, taking shark loans for unnecessary 'luxuries', and the list goes on and on.
  - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
    > “But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from” This is the harmful misunderstanding part. Many systems in society are designed, intentionally, to perpetuate the defeated state that poor people randomly find themselves in. The manifestations of systematic poverty are not really free will choices of poor people a lot the time, from poor financial investments, poor purchase choices (especially when it comes to dietary choices or purchases for children), poor investment in education. The whole world they inhabit is institutionally configured to perpetuate this, give them no empathy or support. To a good first order approximation, zero percent of the life situation inhabited by most poor people is “their fault” and most outward seeming bad habits that are lazily easy for us to judge are really things we, society, have pushed onto them, and we should not take the easy way out and think contemptibly towards them.
    - RandomInteger4 8y ago
      If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own. Trying to find excuses for them isn't helping them and is in fact actively harmful. The usefulness of Stoicism comes from accepting the difficulties of life and dealing with them without indulging in excess with the excuse that it's for "self-care". When you fail and blame others, you fail again and again, because you can't learn what the root cause is in order to change your approach. I'm not saying that being poor is easy; I know first hand that it's not. I'm saying that the fact that it's not easy is the point and reason to adopt Stoicism.
      - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
        > “If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own” It looks like we just disagree. I do believe that is often society’s fault, and that it’s usually just a lazy way to absolve one’s self of blame or moral duty to act, or to justify that it’s OK to take political action that tacitly increases harm to the poor because it’s “their fault” they experience the circumstances they do. We often want to read narratives into our daily observations that paint ourselves as either self-sufficient heroes who worked for everything we got, or as victims of unfair circumstance. But when it comes to other people, we try to read narratives into their circumstances that absolve us of having to worry about it, or justify preconceived judgments we want to make. Bad decision making on the part of people systematically harmed by institutions, governments and policies is a classic example. Such people were often given no realistic opportunity to be capable of making good choices, but we steady ready to rush in and blame them the minute they make bad choices, which were the only kind of choice we gave them any realistic option to make.

by 2III7 8y ago

mlthoughts2018 8y ago

That is a tone deaf and harmful misunderstanding of poor people. Also, I don’t dispute that things like waking up early, meditation or exercise have real benefits. Whether they have real benefits is unrelated to this discussion. Separately, without money to alleviate obligations, many poor people find themselves overwhelmed through no fault of their own. A bad, unexpected legal or medical situation can leave you at the breaking point of stress for no other reason than lack of money. It may help to consider having more empathy as you mentally imagine the plight of poor folks.

saiya-jin 8y ago
You both are correct, that's the sad part - being poor is hard, and the margins for mistake/accident/bad luck are often razor thin. But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from - alcohol, cigarettes, taking shark loans for unnecessary 'luxuries', and the list goes on and on.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  > “But oh boy do I see tons of self-destructing, borderline stupid behavior among predominantly poor from where I come from” This is the harmful misunderstanding part. Many systems in society are designed, intentionally, to perpetuate the defeated state that poor people randomly find themselves in. The manifestations of systematic poverty are not really free will choices of poor people a lot the time, from poor financial investments, poor purchase choices (especially when it comes to dietary choices or purchases for children), poor investment in education. The whole world they inhabit is institutionally configured to perpetuate this, give them no empathy or support. To a good first order approximation, zero percent of the life situation inhabited by most poor people is “their fault” and most outward seeming bad habits that are lazily easy for us to judge are really things we, society, have pushed onto them, and we should not take the easy way out and think contemptibly towards them.
  - RandomInteger4 8y ago
    If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own. Trying to find excuses for them isn't helping them and is in fact actively harmful. The usefulness of Stoicism comes from accepting the difficulties of life and dealing with them without indulging in excess with the excuse that it's for "self-care". When you fail and blame others, you fail again and again, because you can't learn what the root cause is in order to change your approach. I'm not saying that being poor is easy; I know first hand that it's not. I'm saying that the fact that it's not easy is the point and reason to adopt Stoicism.
    - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
      > “If a poor person acts in a self destructive manner, it is not societies fault, it is their own” It looks like we just disagree. I do believe that is often society’s fault, and that it’s usually just a lazy way to absolve one’s self of blame or moral duty to act, or to justify that it’s OK to take political action that tacitly increases harm to the poor because it’s “their fault” they experience the circumstances they do. We often want to read narratives into our daily observations that paint ourselves as either self-sufficient heroes who worked for everything we got, or as victims of unfair circumstance. But when it comes to other people, we try to read narratives into their circumstances that absolve us of having to worry about it, or justify preconceived judgments we want to make. Bad decision making on the part of people systematically harmed by institutions, governments and policies is a classic example. Such people were often given no realistic opportunity to be capable of making good choices, but we steady ready to rush in and blame them the minute they make bad choices, which were the only kind of choice we gave them any realistic option to make.