8 ms·

The comment I originally responded to wasn't about white supremacy, but about censoring discourse. ISIS propaganda is as much "discourse" as white nationalist p

The comment I originally responded to wasn't about white supremacy, but about censoring discourse. ISIS propaganda is as much "discourse" as white nationalist propaganda is, so why didn't you defend ISIS when it was deplatformed years ago? I realize that's kind of a gotcha, so I'll ask a similar question: given that it appears you feel that any deplatforming based on ideology is bad, do you criticize facebook for having deplatformed ISIS? To pre-address your other comment, neither white nationalist propaganda nor ISIS propaganda necessarily includes calls to violence. So the incitement of violence standard applies to neither. If not, what differentiates ISIS from White nationalists? Both are violent groups that wish to kill people different from them. As far as I can tell, one just looks a lot more like me. They're both dangerous, and we shouldn't let either recruit people on facebook. What is the flaw in that line of reasoning? As for that case, it was dismissed earlier this month[1], apparently because the plaintiffs didn't actually have any examples of wrongdoing on the part of companies, and just filed the suit to raise awareness of freedom watch's advocacy[2]. [1]: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/25495855/FREEDOM_WATCH,_INC_v_GOOGLE_INC_et_al https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/25495855/FREEDOM_WA... [2]: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/district-of-columbia/dcdce/1:2018cv02030/199717/44/ https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/distric...

asabjorn 8y ago
ISIS has a clearly defined religious teaching and a core part of their message is using power as well as violence to push their religious teachings onto others to create a world Islamic kaliphate. On the other hand what is being called alt right and white supremacisrs by mainstream organizations is bullshit: - The economist called Ben Shapiro alt right today https://mobile.twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1111248348114239488 https://mobile.twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1111248348114... - The guardian says Jordan Peterson is supposedly alt right https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/201... - Bret Weinstein is supposedly alt right And ridiculously enough Ben Shapiro is a Jew that is the biggest hate target of the alt right, and Jordan Peterson is hated by the alt right such as Richard spencer and Vox Day.
- joshuamorton 8y ago
  You're including the alt right on an argument about white supremacists. Could you perhaps answer my questions without taking about the alt right, who aren't being discussed by anyone but you. White supremacists also advocate violence against other races often to subjugate them. This is highly similar to isis. Or are you claiming that all members of the alt right are white supremacists?
  - asabjorn 8y ago
    ADL defines alt right and white supremacy to be the same: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-primer-about-the-new-white-supremacy https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-prim... SPLC also say they are the same: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideo... The opinions of SPLC and ADL is especially relevant because mainstream media and social media companies such as Facebook seem to have relationships with them as well as similar orgs to define actions against people. So no, we are taking about the same poorly defined term because these orgs is an authority to Facebook. The reason it’s bullshit is that these orgs doesn’t relate it to truth and evidence, use their power to slap this label onto anyone that disagree with them and punish people for things they didn’t do.
    - joshuamorton 8y ago
      >This vague term actually encompasses a range of people on the extreme right who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of forms of conservatism that embrace implicit or explicit racism or white supremacy. Unless you're of the opinion that "racism" and "white supremacy" are synonymous, the ADL does not define them as the same. >So no, we are taking about the same poorly defined term. To be clear, the "alt right" isn't white nationalist, it is, however, a white nationalist recruiting tool. Sort of like how you don't just start out as a random person and then the next day you become Jihadi Jane. You're slowly radicalized. The alt right to full-on white supremacist pipeline is the same way. You start off interested in self help, so you read 12 rules for life; then get caught up in Peterson's weird ideas about western culture; then pretty soon you're seeing not just his youtube lectures, but other lectures about western culture; and then videos about the decline of white/western culture; and then you're watching Richard Spencer; then you shoot up a church. Now absolutely, granted, not everyone follows the entire path, very few people end up radicalized, but while I'll absolutely agree with you that Peterson isn't a white supremacist, he's absolutely a useful idiot for them. But again, let's stick to people who have been accused of being "White Supremacists" since you're the one using the term alt-right, not Facebook. Which innocent people are getting accidentally confused for "white supremacists" specifically?

asabjorn 8y ago

ISIS has a clearly defined religious teaching and a core part of their message is using power as well as violence to push their religious teachings onto others to create a world Islamic kaliphate. On the other hand what is being called alt right and white supremacisrs by mainstream organizations is bullshit: - The economist called Ben Shapiro alt right today https://mobile.twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1111248348114239488 https://mobile.twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1111248348114... - The guardian says Jordan Peterson is supposedly alt right https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/201... - Bret Weinstein is supposedly alt right And ridiculously enough Ben Shapiro is a Jew that is the biggest hate target of the alt right, and Jordan Peterson is hated by the alt right such as Richard spencer and Vox Day.

joshuamorton 8y ago
You're including the alt right on an argument about white supremacists. Could you perhaps answer my questions without taking about the alt right, who aren't being discussed by anyone but you. White supremacists also advocate violence against other races often to subjugate them. This is highly similar to isis. Or are you claiming that all members of the alt right are white supremacists?
- asabjorn 8y ago
  ADL defines alt right and white supremacy to be the same: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-primer-about-the-new-white-supremacy https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/alt-right-a-prim... SPLC also say they are the same: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideo... The opinions of SPLC and ADL is especially relevant because mainstream media and social media companies such as Facebook seem to have relationships with them as well as similar orgs to define actions against people. So no, we are taking about the same poorly defined term because these orgs is an authority to Facebook. The reason it’s bullshit is that these orgs doesn’t relate it to truth and evidence, use their power to slap this label onto anyone that disagree with them and punish people for things they didn’t do.
  - joshuamorton 8y ago
    >This vague term actually encompasses a range of people on the extreme right who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of forms of conservatism that embrace implicit or explicit racism or white supremacy. Unless you're of the opinion that "racism" and "white supremacy" are synonymous, the ADL does not define them as the same. >So no, we are taking about the same poorly defined term. To be clear, the "alt right" isn't white nationalist, it is, however, a white nationalist recruiting tool. Sort of like how you don't just start out as a random person and then the next day you become Jihadi Jane. You're slowly radicalized. The alt right to full-on white supremacist pipeline is the same way. You start off interested in self help, so you read 12 rules for life; then get caught up in Peterson's weird ideas about western culture; then pretty soon you're seeing not just his youtube lectures, but other lectures about western culture; and then videos about the decline of white/western culture; and then you're watching Richard Spencer; then you shoot up a church. Now absolutely, granted, not everyone follows the entire path, very few people end up radicalized, but while I'll absolutely agree with you that Peterson isn't a white supremacist, he's absolutely a useful idiot for them. But again, let's stick to people who have been accused of being "White Supremacists" since you're the one using the term alt-right, not Facebook. Which innocent people are getting accidentally confused for "white supremacists" specifically?