6 ms·

'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

70 points by smacktoward 8y ago

phillc73 8y ago
I've not heard of this particular novel before, but presume it is about Hereward the Wake[1], which is indeed listed on the Wikipedia page. His story is fascinating and a couple of years ago I read a number of different books about him[2], with half an idea to write something myself. I'm really pleased someone else has written a new work about Hereward. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake_(novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake_(novel)
- ggsp 8y ago
  From the Wikipedia article you linked: "Man Booker Prize long-listed The Wake (2014) by Paul Kingsnorth is a historical novel written in a shadow version of old English telling the story of another resistance fighter in the fens whose actions are regularly compared to Hereward."
  - phillc73 8y ago
    Yes, I mentioned that in my comment. I just hadn't come across this one before. My reading around Hereward was prior to its publication (maybe I should have said a few, rather than a couple of years ago. Time flies).
    - smacktoward 8y ago
      I’ve read The Wake, and it’s really not accurate to say it’s “about” Hereward. Hereward doesn’t really figure into its story at all, except as an offstage personage we hear about occasionally when his actions are compared to those of the protagonist, Buccmaster of Holland. The Wake isn’t a lightly fictionalized biography of an historical figure. It’s something much richer and more imaginative than that. If you’re interested in the period, I would definitely recommend it.
mrob 8y ago
Plain text version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=434970724 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=434970724
holowire 8y ago
I actually just picked up 'The Wake' a couple of weeks ago. There is definitely a learning curve to Kingsnorth's "shadow tongue," but once you get the hang of it, it is very immersive and rewarding to read. It really gives you a sense of foreign place and time, as a story set in 1066 should. What surprised me is how effective it is at establishing a perspective from which you can really feel the relationship that these characters have with the world around them. I picked it up because the premise sounded interesting, and was totally blown away with how fun it is to read—I would definitely recommend checking it out.
- ken 8y ago
  "Cloud Atlas" is another book that uses different writing styles for different eras -- 6 of them, I think. Every new chapter, it takes a little while to figure out the language.
- spudlyo 8y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation, I just might do that. I was relieved to see it has a glossary[0] so you're not completely at sea. I remember getting all the way through Trainspotting without realizing that there was a glossary in the back of the book, which was a facepalm moment. [0]: https://unbound.com/books/the-wake/updates/glossary https://unbound.com/books/the-wake/updates/glossary
  - holowire 8y ago
    Oh yes—I should have mentioned the glossary. Thanks for calling that out—it is absolutely necessary in making it an enjoyable read. Once you get a grasp on it though, it's pretty easy to infer meaning of new words as you go.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> Kingsnorth said this is because the words we use to describe our world shape our perception of it. That's the concept of Linguistic relativity, also known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity The strong version says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories. The weak version says that linguistic categories and usage only influence thought and decisions. My understanding is that this idea is controversial and in any case, difficult to demonstrate, because it's mostly impossible to know one's thoughts without asking them to put them into words, and also because language understanding is subjective and it's impossible to understand what someone is saying without placing it in the context of our knowledge and understanding of the world in the first place.
- BucketSort 8y ago
  My subjective experience of flow states[1] makes me believe this is true. In these states thinking feels much less discrete (which is something language seems to impose) and more continuous. Any programmer knows what this feels like when you get into a serious coding session. You get to the point where all the principles of programming fade from your attention and focus more on how information is being shaped by your program (learning Haskell brought this to a new level for me). There have been times where I couldn't even explain what I had done in words, which gives me further evidence that flow is related to breaking down this linguistic imposition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Our team has started using types-code to communicate, works well. We have unified basic interfaces and concepts, that helps.
- 234x1fchqaefn 8y ago
  The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts. Since it is patently false that no new words or new concepts are created, by Modus Tollens, it is also false that you are cognitively limited to your language. The weak version seems true to me. I think it is absolutely the case that your language colors your thought.
ajuc 8y ago
Aleksander Gołubiew wrote historic novels in Polish "archaized" in similar manner. I especially like his "Bolesław Chrobry" series, also set in 10th-11th century, but in Poland. Sadly it wasn't translated to English, it's a very interesting book. Kinda like Game of Thrones but higher percentage of real history and no fantasy elements (other than people believing in folklore). It's very funny experience to read it, at first you struggle, then you stop noticing it. Reading the third book you catch yourself using the more useful words when you think.
- arebours 8y ago
  I feel like you always have to bend the language to match the context. I think it was Sapkowski on his Narrenturm series (which happens to be set in the late Middle Ages) who said that even though he didn't want to specifically archaize the language he couldn't use a modern version of it either. Some new words/concepts like "computer" or "holocaust" would feel out of place and be immediately spotted by the reader.
Whygul 8y ago
This book is really pleasant and would definitely recommend. It is emotionally taxing at times but packed with wild imagery/poetry.
ranko 8y ago
If you like The Wake, you might also enjoy Riddley Walker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker), which uses an imaginary psuedo-iron-age dialect transcribed phonetically: "On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen."
- otabdeveloper1 8y ago
  > psuedo-iron-age It's not, it's just phonetic transcription of modern urban English with some SMS-style typing errors thrown in. Really disappointed with the crappy low-effort linguistics in that book.
  - tomgp 8y ago
    Couldn't disagree more, many of the words are halfway between two other words or are deconstructions of existing words fragmenting and refracting their meaning though Ridley's understanding of the world. To give the most obvious example; Eusa is a confusion of St Eustace, the USA and Jesus with a rich web of meaning and myth springing from that conflation. The spelling speaks to how the transition from oral to written tradition can crystallise the meaning of myths, fixing their meaning.
    - NikkiA 8y ago
      Except iron age english looks like this: cwæð þæt se Ælmihtiga eorðan worhte, wlitebeorhtne wang, swa wæter bebugeð, gesette sigehreþig sunnan ond monan leoman to leohte landbuendum, ond gefrætwade foldan sceatas leomum ond leafum, lif eac gesceop rynna gehwylcum þara ðe cwice hwyrfaþ.--- Swa þa drihtguman dreamum lifdon, eadiglice, oð ðæt an ongan fyrene fremman feond on helle; wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten, mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold, fen ond fæsten; fifelcynnes eard wonsæli wer weardode hwile, siþðan him Scyppend forscrifen hæfde in Caines cynne--- þone cwealm gewræc ece Drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog; ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac hehine feor forwræc, Metod for þy mane mancynne fram. Þanon untydras ealle on wocon, eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas, swylce gigantas, þa wið Gode wunnon Which is nothing like phonetic modern english, and thus his point.
ForHackernews 8y ago
Not mentioned in this NPR article, but Kingsnorth is also one of the main people behind the Dark Mountain Project, an attempt to formulate a cultural response to our ongoing ecological collapse: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/magazine/its-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-he-feels-fine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/magazine/its-the-end-of-t...
JoeDaDude 8y ago
When I read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess, I found myself using many words from the slang language he invented, an amalgamation of Russian and English. (The slang language got minimal treatment in the film, you'll have to read the book). I'll have to read The Wake to see if it happens again. I still remember "horrorshow", it means good or cool, comes from the Russian "khorosho".
- castratikron 8y ago
  Also "otchkies" meaning "glasses". Means the same in Russian. I'll say it in English every once and a while.

70 points by smacktoward 8y ago

I've not heard of this particular novel before, but presume it is about Hereward the Wake[1], which is indeed listed on the Wikipedia page. His story is fascinating and a couple of years ago I read a number of different books about him[2], with half an idea to write something myself. I'm really pleased someone else has written a new work about Hereward. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake_(novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereward_the_Wake_(novel)

ggsp 8y ago
From the Wikipedia article you linked: "Man Booker Prize long-listed The Wake (2014) by Paul Kingsnorth is a historical novel written in a shadow version of old English telling the story of another resistance fighter in the fens whose actions are regularly compared to Hereward."
- phillc73 8y ago
  Yes, I mentioned that in my comment. I just hadn't come across this one before. My reading around Hereward was prior to its publication (maybe I should have said a few, rather than a couple of years ago. Time flies).
  - smacktoward 8y ago
    I’ve read The Wake, and it’s really not accurate to say it’s “about” Hereward. Hereward doesn’t really figure into its story at all, except as an offstage personage we hear about occasionally when his actions are compared to those of the protagonist, Buccmaster of Holland. The Wake isn’t a lightly fictionalized biography of an historical figure. It’s something much richer and more imaginative than that. If you’re interested in the period, I would definitely recommend it.

mrob 8y ago

Plain text version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=434970724 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=434970724

holowire 8y ago

I actually just picked up 'The Wake' a couple of weeks ago. There is definitely a learning curve to Kingsnorth's "shadow tongue," but once you get the hang of it, it is very immersive and rewarding to read. It really gives you a sense of foreign place and time, as a story set in 1066 should. What surprised me is how effective it is at establishing a perspective from which you can really feel the relationship that these characters have with the world around them. I picked it up because the premise sounded interesting, and was totally blown away with how fun it is to read—I would definitely recommend checking it out.

ken 8y ago
"Cloud Atlas" is another book that uses different writing styles for different eras -- 6 of them, I think. Every new chapter, it takes a little while to figure out the language.
spudlyo 8y ago
Thanks for the recommendation, I just might do that. I was relieved to see it has a glossary[0] so you're not completely at sea. I remember getting all the way through Trainspotting without realizing that there was a glossary in the back of the book, which was a facepalm moment. [0]: https://unbound.com/books/the-wake/updates/glossary https://unbound.com/books/the-wake/updates/glossary
- holowire 8y ago
  Oh yes—I should have mentioned the glossary. Thanks for calling that out—it is absolutely necessary in making it an enjoyable read. Once you get a grasp on it though, it's pretty easy to infer meaning of new words as you go.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

>> Kingsnorth said this is because the words we use to describe our world shape our perception of it. That's the concept of Linguistic relativity, also known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity The strong version says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories. The weak version says that linguistic categories and usage only influence thought and decisions. My understanding is that this idea is controversial and in any case, difficult to demonstrate, because it's mostly impossible to know one's thoughts without asking them to put them into words, and also because language understanding is subjective and it's impossible to understand what someone is saying without placing it in the context of our knowledge and understanding of the world in the first place.

BucketSort 8y ago
My subjective experience of flow states[1] makes me believe this is true. In these states thinking feels much less discrete (which is something language seems to impose) and more continuous. Any programmer knows what this feels like when you get into a serious coding session. You get to the point where all the principles of programming fade from your attention and focus more on how information is being shaped by your program (learning Haskell brought this to a new level for me). There have been times where I couldn't even explain what I had done in words, which gives me further evidence that flow is related to breaking down this linguistic imposition. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Our team has started using types-code to communicate, works well. We have unified basic interfaces and concepts, that helps.
234x1fchqaefn 8y ago
The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts. Since it is patently false that no new words or new concepts are created, by Modus Tollens, it is also false that you are cognitively limited to your language. The weak version seems true to me. I think it is absolutely the case that your language colors your thought.

ajuc 8y ago

Aleksander Gołubiew wrote historic novels in Polish "archaized" in similar manner. I especially like his "Bolesław Chrobry" series, also set in 10th-11th century, but in Poland. Sadly it wasn't translated to English, it's a very interesting book. Kinda like Game of Thrones but higher percentage of real history and no fantasy elements (other than people believing in folklore). It's very funny experience to read it, at first you struggle, then you stop noticing it. Reading the third book you catch yourself using the more useful words when you think.

arebours 8y ago
I feel like you always have to bend the language to match the context. I think it was Sapkowski on his Narrenturm series (which happens to be set in the late Middle Ages) who said that even though he didn't want to specifically archaize the language he couldn't use a modern version of it either. Some new words/concepts like "computer" or "holocaust" would feel out of place and be immediately spotted by the reader.

Whygul 8y ago

This book is really pleasant and would definitely recommend. It is emotionally taxing at times but packed with wild imagery/poetry.

ranko 8y ago

If you like The Wake, you might also enjoy Riddley Walker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker), which uses an imaginary psuedo-iron-age dialect transcribed phonetically: "On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen."

otabdeveloper1 8y ago
> psuedo-iron-age It's not, it's just phonetic transcription of modern urban English with some SMS-style typing errors thrown in. Really disappointed with the crappy low-effort linguistics in that book.
- tomgp 8y ago
  Couldn't disagree more, many of the words are halfway between two other words or are deconstructions of existing words fragmenting and refracting their meaning though Ridley's understanding of the world. To give the most obvious example; Eusa is a confusion of St Eustace, the USA and Jesus with a rich web of meaning and myth springing from that conflation. The spelling speaks to how the transition from oral to written tradition can crystallise the meaning of myths, fixing their meaning.
  - NikkiA 8y ago
    Except iron age english looks like this: cwæð þæt se Ælmihtiga eorðan worhte, wlitebeorhtne wang, swa wæter bebugeð, gesette sigehreþig sunnan ond monan leoman to leohte landbuendum, ond gefrætwade foldan sceatas leomum ond leafum, lif eac gesceop rynna gehwylcum þara ðe cwice hwyrfaþ.--- Swa þa drihtguman dreamum lifdon, eadiglice, oð ðæt an ongan fyrene fremman feond on helle; wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten, mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold, fen ond fæsten; fifelcynnes eard wonsæli wer weardode hwile, siþðan him Scyppend forscrifen hæfde in Caines cynne--- þone cwealm gewræc ece Drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog; ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac hehine feor forwræc, Metod for þy mane mancynne fram. Þanon untydras ealle on wocon, eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas, swylce gigantas, þa wið Gode wunnon Which is nothing like phonetic modern english, and thus his point.

ForHackernews 8y ago

Not mentioned in this NPR article, but Kingsnorth is also one of the main people behind the Dark Mountain Project, an attempt to formulate a cultural response to our ongoing ecological collapse: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/magazine/its-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-he-feels-fine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/magazine/its-the-end-of-t...

JoeDaDude 8y ago

When I read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess, I found myself using many words from the slang language he invented, an amalgamation of Russian and English. (The slang language got minimal treatment in the film, you'll have to read the book). I'll have to read The Wake to see if it happens again. I still remember "horrorshow", it means good or cool, comes from the Russian "khorosho".

castratikron 8y ago
Also "otchkies" meaning "glasses". Means the same in Russian. I'll say it in English every once and a while.