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Who do you propose gets to decide what speech is dangerous?
by dqpb 8y ago
Who do you propose gets to decide what speech is dangerous?
- beat 8y agoThat's a disingenuous question. Let me come back with some questions about your question. Are you proposing that nobody can decide what speech is dangerous? Are you suggesting there is no such thing as dangerous speech? Are you suggesting that having someone decide what speech is dangerous is actually worse than the dangerous speech itself? If you're not suggesting any of these things, then how do you get out of the proposition that someone has decide?
- gjs278 8y agothere is no such thing as dangerous speech
- dqpb 8y agoIt's not disingenuous - it's the most fundamental question that needs to be answered if you propose speech be controlled. > how do you get out of the proposition that someone has to decide I agree ultimately some subset of people would need to decide. My question is who?
- XorNot 8y agoYou clearly have done answer in mind since you've already conceded the core argument. Who do you think? I'm good with the discourse between the public and Facebook leadership in so far as it targets widespread social norms and ignores the few loudmouths.
- sisfs 8y agoI guess I am remembering it wrong but I thought sticks and stones were dangerous but words could never hurt me. (Calls to action dont hurt me either, but I can see how one could categorize them as dangerousness due to the resultant action)
- beat 8y agoWords inspire action. That's why it matters. To paraphrase the Supreme Court, the problem with shouting fire in a crowded theater isn't the shout, it's the dangerous stampede that follows. And those who deliberately inspire violent behavior with their speech are very, very careful to make sure it's not an explicit call to action. This is not new. "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" has been around for a long time.
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago> Are you suggesting there is no such thing as dangerous speech? Are you suggesting that having someone decide what speech is dangerous is actually worse than the dangerous speech itself? How is that working out in the People's Republic of China? They have a very concrete definition of what dangerous speech and have legions of people to decide whether individual instances are dangerous and to remove them. Clearly, their system illustrates the hazard of your viewpoint.
- beat 8y agoAh, but does it? China is currently going through a period of peace and incredible growth (per capita income has grown about 130x since 1960, in constant dollars). The people are safe, secure, and enjoying opportunities their grandparents couldn't even imagine. And I suspect that if you polled in China, you'd find a majority agree with the regulations on speech, and sincerely so (not saying yes out of fear). Meanwhile, things are much freer than they were. I'm currently reading a Chinese novel, The Three Body Problem, set partly in the Cultural Revolution, and it pulls no punches about how awful it was.
- dqpb 8y ago> And I suspect that if you polled in China, you'd find a majority agree with the regulations on speech Of course you would, polls like all speech are tightly controlled.
- beat 8y agoEven here, on an American-centric discussion full of grossly privileged white American men, you'll find most agree on some regulation of speech. It's just a question of degree.
- sagichmal 8y agoWe do, collectively, as a society. Sometimes we'll get it wrong, and need to correct it. That's fine. We're capable of that. What's not fine is throwing up our hands at even the concept of performing that judgment, because it's subjective or whatever. That cedes the public square to extremists, which results in a shittier society.
- beat 8y agoAnd observational data suggests that American society (and global society) has gotten better, not worse, at this judgment. When we started this game, we had slaves, who were defined as three fifths of a human being for purposes of political representation of slave owners. Voting was restricted to white land-owning men. It's getting better.
- dqpb 8y agoSo, popular vote? Let our representatives decide? Something else?
- sagichmal 8y agoAll of the above, and more. Organizations like Facebook can decide to deplatform white nationalists, and we can vote with our clicks or whatever in response to that. You and I can get on message boards and advocate for what we think is just. Over time we all shape our society in our image.
- beat 8y agoOur representatives. Our judicial system. Our public institutions. Our private businesses. You're WAY too hung up on this "who decides?" question, ignoring the reality that either someone has to decide, or that no one should decide and society should simply not regulate speech in any way, ever. Good luck with the latter if you ever have kids.
- dqpb 8y agoAh, but the devil is in the details.