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I'm not a citizen of an EU member state. But from an outside perspective, a significant number of MEPs "accidentally voting the wrong way" seems to indicate a s

I'm not a citizen of an EU member state. But from an outside perspective, a significant number of MEPs "accidentally voting the wrong way" seems to indicate a severe and systemic problem with the European Parliament. Failure of one the fundamental mechanisms of representative democratic government calls into question the legitimacy of that government, and of that system of government. This is ammunition for the advocates of illiberal systems.

drak0n1c 8y ago
I agree that these endemic procedural messes reveal that core parts of the EU may be illiberal, overly federalized, and could use reform. But how is acknowledging its weaknesses ammunition for illiberal systems in general? Out of all the alternatives it gives ammo to, those advocating for more local, directly democratic governance have been receiving the lions share compared to those advocating alternative authoritarian schemes.
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  Not really acknowledgment of weakness, but presence and presentation of weakness. Inside of Europe, I'm thinking about Viktor Orbán and Vladimir Putin. Outside, I'm thinking about Xi Jinping.
clarkmoody 8y ago
You're implying that a representative democracy is a liberal system, which does not follow. Maybe you could argue that it has the best potential to be liberal, but history is replete with examples of huge violations of individual liberties under these governments. Perhaps calling into question the legitimacy of democracy is a good thing? Indeed, why is it legitimate to violate an individual's liberties through a vote of 50% + 1 of her peers? Edit: I'll echo the peer comment that a reasonable compromise could be smaller units of government, which better represent the people. Smaller states also the limit the scope of abuse of the people within and the threat to people without.
- anoncake 8y ago
  > Perhaps calling into question the legitimacy of democracy is a good thing? Indeed, why is it legitimate to violate an individual's liberties through a vote of 50% + 1 of her peers? Someone has to decide what these liberties are. You can require a greater majority than 50%, but replacing democracy by something else does not help.
- ihm 8y ago
  Maybe you mean the legitimacy of majoritarian rule? And even more, representative majoritarian rule. Democracy is the idea that people should have a say in how their own lives are run, the exact mechanism could be many things.
anoncake 8y ago
The UI of the EP voting system being so bad MEPs vote the wrong way is a serious problem, but how is it a systemic one?
Nexxxeh 8y ago
Leaving the EU can be equally messy, our own Remainer-in-charge-of-Brexit PM nearly voted against the government last month. If nothing else, Brexit is proving that the EU is better than the alternative. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-vote-results-parliament-commons-deal-amendments-mps/ https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-vote-results-parliame...
eridius 8y ago
A different article I read earlier said they changed the order of the votes at the last minute and even the president was confused.

drak0n1c 8y ago

I agree that these endemic procedural messes reveal that core parts of the EU may be illiberal, overly federalized, and could use reform. But how is acknowledging its weaknesses ammunition for illiberal systems in general? Out of all the alternatives it gives ammo to, those advocating for more local, directly democratic governance have been receiving the lions share compared to those advocating alternative authoritarian schemes.

i_am_proteus 8y ago
Not really acknowledgment of weakness, but presence and presentation of weakness. Inside of Europe, I'm thinking about Viktor Orbán and Vladimir Putin. Outside, I'm thinking about Xi Jinping.

clarkmoody 8y ago

You're implying that a representative democracy is a liberal system, which does not follow. Maybe you could argue that it has the best potential to be liberal, but history is replete with examples of huge violations of individual liberties under these governments. Perhaps calling into question the legitimacy of democracy is a good thing? Indeed, why is it legitimate to violate an individual's liberties through a vote of 50% + 1 of her peers? Edit: I'll echo the peer comment that a reasonable compromise could be smaller units of government, which better represent the people. Smaller states also the limit the scope of abuse of the people within and the threat to people without.

anoncake 8y ago
> Perhaps calling into question the legitimacy of democracy is a good thing? Indeed, why is it legitimate to violate an individual's liberties through a vote of 50% + 1 of her peers? Someone has to decide what these liberties are. You can require a greater majority than 50%, but replacing democracy by something else does not help.
ihm 8y ago
Maybe you mean the legitimacy of majoritarian rule? And even more, representative majoritarian rule. Democracy is the idea that people should have a say in how their own lives are run, the exact mechanism could be many things.

anoncake 8y ago

The UI of the EP voting system being so bad MEPs vote the wrong way is a serious problem, but how is it a systemic one?

Nexxxeh 8y ago

Leaving the EU can be equally messy, our own Remainer-in-charge-of-Brexit PM nearly voted against the government last month. If nothing else, Brexit is proving that the EU is better than the alternative. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-vote-results-parliament-commons-deal-amendments-mps/ https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-vote-results-parliame...

eridius 8y ago

A different article I read earlier said they changed the order of the votes at the last minute and even the president was confused.