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Man I hope they don't listen to requests like these. I'm all for an improved screen, arm processor w/ better thermals, better and more reliable keyboard, but th

Man I hope they don't listen to requests like these. I'm all for an improved screen, arm processor w/ better thermals, better and more reliable keyboard, but the design needs to move forward not backward. I can't imagine how anyone can use a 2012-2015 macbook and think the chassis and keyboard should be reverted to that in 2020. I mean it was great at the time, but would be horribly outclassed today. Despite various issues with the new mac design, it was a good step forward and by most measures makes the previous generation feel old by comparison. Yes maybe they're over-optimizing for lightness and thinness, but these are indeed important aspects of a portable device and should not be ignored entirely. They just need to correct the balance a bit more toward the middle, not go back in time.

Aloha 8y ago
> I mean it was great at the time, but would be horribly outclassed today. By what?
- chronofar 8y ago
  Any modern ultra-book.
  - asdff 8y ago
    What's wrong with it? Tons of IO. Thin and light enough. Magsafe. Scissor keys. Throw in a USB-C port and boom, state of the art again.
    - chronofar 8y ago
      Well nothing's "wrong" per say, but since we're talking opinions here I don't think it was thin or light enough, I don't care for mag safe (I'm generally careful where I put cords and find mag safe annoying if anything), actually like the new keyboard better (though I don't care for either that much), and much prefer having 4 interchangeable USB-C/TB3 ports that I can use for anything (video/audio output, midi, external storage, power out or in, etc). Sure I have to have a dongle or two, but I've actually found that to be not a big deal and overall pretty nice. And that's just the things you highlighted, not mention other things like the better touchpad, better speakers, brighter screen, finger-reader, etc. I mean I get why people have preferences for the things you mentioned, but I'd call them appeals to "comfort and familiar" not "state of the art."
    - razorunreal 8y ago
      Funny you mention magsafe, because that was defective too. They settled a class action but didn't actually fix anything. It would slowly toast it's own cable (probably due to dust in the connection) until the insulation frayed and you had to buy a new charger. Of course they would blame you for abusing the cable.
  - danShumway 8y ago
    Okay, fine. Then Apple should go out and copy any modern ultra-book and throw away the keyboard design they currently have. I personally think my 2015 Macbook keyboard feels pretty good. I also spend a heck of a lot more time typing on my Macbook than one-handing it, so the whole "thinness matters more than usage/responsiveness/reliability" thing doesn't really make sense to me as a tradeoff. I can't think of single time I've ever pulled out my Macbook and thought, "this keyboard isn't cutting it anymore." But even if we decide that 2015 keyboards are all rubbish, other keyboards on other laptops being sold today do not have so many problems that users have literally written software to combat them by suppressing keystrokes. I don't care what design Apple regresses to or who they want to copy, but they need to start copying someone. To my mind, it's pretty obvious that this is a architectural problem with the core design of butterfly keyboards. After multiple generations of the same problem, it doesn't look like it's a manufacturing defect or an anomaly. It looks like the butterfly keyboard is just plain and simple bad design. Apple wants to talk about being brave, they should be brave enough to throw out the keyboard and put in something else, even if that something else is just a carbon copy of a standard, modern ultrabook keyboard. I understand that the butterfly keyboard was very hard to build, and I'm very impressed with the tech that went into it, but if you want to make an exceptional product you have to be willing to occasionally kill your darlings.
acdha 8y ago
> I can't imagine how anyone can use a 2012-2015 macbook and think the chassis and keyboard should be reverted to that in 2020. I mean it was great at the time, but would be horribly outclassed today. Can you explain in detail why you believe this to be true? Once they hit the natural thickness limits of a keyboard device there really hasn't been any meaningful change. I periodically interact with a range of them and the only thing I can say for a certainty is that the older keyboards feel better and I have to check the system profile to know what the rest of the hardware is like.
- chronofar 8y ago
  The 2016-2019 macbooks feel much more modern. They're lighter, thinner, the touchpad is nicer, more uniform, and though the touch bar isn't terribly useful it looks quite nice. It's overall just a much sleeker and more modern machine. I'm not a design expert by any means so I probably can't give as good of a detailed account as others could, but I know when I use my 2015 macbook pro after using my 2018, or after using an XPS or pixelbook, it feels much older than 3 years.
  - acdha 8y ago
    The new touchpad and touchbar could also be used on a new design which allows enough for a high-quality keyboard. I've never been struck by the weight or size reductions but the low-end keyboard feel is constantly noticeable.
    - chronofar 8y ago
      > The new touchpad and touchbar could also be used on a new design which allows enough for a high-quality keyboard. For sure, as noted I'm all for that. I don't think we need to move back to 2015 to accomplish that though.
      - acdha 8y ago
        I don't think anyone is saying there's no room for improvement but I would really like it if the requirement was that they fit a high-quality keyboard in even if it meant being 10% thicker. My home laptop is still a 2010 MBA because, even after almost a decade of heavy use, it still feels better than the brand new keyboards — that's completely ridiculous.
driverdan 8y ago
Just because something is a few years old doesn't mean it's old technology or that it's less good. IBM Model M keyboards, for example, are still fantastic 30 years later.
- chronofar 8y ago
  To be sure older != quality. My point was that many of the design choices they made were indeed of better quality, and rather than just revert to the old way I hope they refine the direction so we keep said positive momentum just with more durability.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
Wow, so people like you actually exist.

Aloha 8y ago

> I mean it was great at the time, but would be horribly outclassed today. By what?

chronofar 8y ago
Any modern ultra-book.
- asdff 8y ago
  What's wrong with it? Tons of IO. Thin and light enough. Magsafe. Scissor keys. Throw in a USB-C port and boom, state of the art again.
  - chronofar 8y ago
    Well nothing's "wrong" per say, but since we're talking opinions here I don't think it was thin or light enough, I don't care for mag safe (I'm generally careful where I put cords and find mag safe annoying if anything), actually like the new keyboard better (though I don't care for either that much), and much prefer having 4 interchangeable USB-C/TB3 ports that I can use for anything (video/audio output, midi, external storage, power out or in, etc). Sure I have to have a dongle or two, but I've actually found that to be not a big deal and overall pretty nice. And that's just the things you highlighted, not mention other things like the better touchpad, better speakers, brighter screen, finger-reader, etc. I mean I get why people have preferences for the things you mentioned, but I'd call them appeals to "comfort and familiar" not "state of the art."
  - razorunreal 8y ago
    Funny you mention magsafe, because that was defective too. They settled a class action but didn't actually fix anything. It would slowly toast it's own cable (probably due to dust in the connection) until the insulation frayed and you had to buy a new charger. Of course they would blame you for abusing the cable.
- danShumway 8y ago
  Okay, fine. Then Apple should go out and copy any modern ultra-book and throw away the keyboard design they currently have. I personally think my 2015 Macbook keyboard feels pretty good. I also spend a heck of a lot more time typing on my Macbook than one-handing it, so the whole "thinness matters more than usage/responsiveness/reliability" thing doesn't really make sense to me as a tradeoff. I can't think of single time I've ever pulled out my Macbook and thought, "this keyboard isn't cutting it anymore." But even if we decide that 2015 keyboards are all rubbish, other keyboards on other laptops being sold today do not have so many problems that users have literally written software to combat them by suppressing keystrokes. I don't care what design Apple regresses to or who they want to copy, but they need to start copying someone. To my mind, it's pretty obvious that this is a architectural problem with the core design of butterfly keyboards. After multiple generations of the same problem, it doesn't look like it's a manufacturing defect or an anomaly. It looks like the butterfly keyboard is just plain and simple bad design. Apple wants to talk about being brave, they should be brave enough to throw out the keyboard and put in something else, even if that something else is just a carbon copy of a standard, modern ultrabook keyboard. I understand that the butterfly keyboard was very hard to build, and I'm very impressed with the tech that went into it, but if you want to make an exceptional product you have to be willing to occasionally kill your darlings.

acdha 8y ago

> I can't imagine how anyone can use a 2012-2015 macbook and think the chassis and keyboard should be reverted to that in 2020. I mean it was great at the time, but would be horribly outclassed today. Can you explain in detail why you believe this to be true? Once they hit the natural thickness limits of a keyboard device there really hasn't been any meaningful change. I periodically interact with a range of them and the only thing I can say for a certainty is that the older keyboards feel better and I have to check the system profile to know what the rest of the hardware is like.

chronofar 8y ago
The 2016-2019 macbooks feel much more modern. They're lighter, thinner, the touchpad is nicer, more uniform, and though the touch bar isn't terribly useful it looks quite nice. It's overall just a much sleeker and more modern machine. I'm not a design expert by any means so I probably can't give as good of a detailed account as others could, but I know when I use my 2015 macbook pro after using my 2018, or after using an XPS or pixelbook, it feels much older than 3 years.
- acdha 8y ago
  The new touchpad and touchbar could also be used on a new design which allows enough for a high-quality keyboard. I've never been struck by the weight or size reductions but the low-end keyboard feel is constantly noticeable.
  - chronofar 8y ago
    > The new touchpad and touchbar could also be used on a new design which allows enough for a high-quality keyboard. For sure, as noted I'm all for that. I don't think we need to move back to 2015 to accomplish that though.
    - acdha 8y ago
      I don't think anyone is saying there's no room for improvement but I would really like it if the requirement was that they fit a high-quality keyboard in even if it meant being 10% thicker. My home laptop is still a 2010 MBA because, even after almost a decade of heavy use, it still feels better than the brand new keyboards — that's completely ridiculous.

driverdan 8y ago

Just because something is a few years old doesn't mean it's old technology or that it's less good. IBM Model M keyboards, for example, are still fantastic 30 years later.

chronofar 8y ago
To be sure older != quality. My point was that many of the design choices they made were indeed of better quality, and rather than just revert to the old way I hope they refine the direction so we keep said positive momentum just with more durability.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago

Wow, so people like you actually exist.